Arms deal probe (2000-2010)

Surprise, surprise, surprise

Now all we need is a media tribunal to bury reports that there was ever even an arms deal.

It is disgusting and a travesty of justice. How can anyone defend such blatant pillaging, even the most hardcore ANC supporters? Get real people, this is not the "white's" money they are stealing. It is money that should have been earmarked for building schools, hospitals, roads, bridges, in short for improving the lives of ALL South Africans! I still hope for a future for myself and my children in the wonderful country, but with nonsense like this going on, we are fast on the road to becoming just another African F***-up!

The Scorpians a unit dedicated to investigating ALL CORRUPTION, with an excellent conviction record disbanded by the ANC.
The Hawks replaced the Scorpians. The Hawks led by Anwar Dramat, an ANC strategic deployment.
An estimated 1billion rands worth of bribes.
More strong evidence has been uncovered by German authorities.
The Hawks have already decided not to ask for it.
Yet more evidence that institutions that are supposed to fight crime, exist solely to protect South Africa's largest crime syndicate, the ANC.
The Hawks, subverted to protect the ANC.
The NPA, headed by ANC sycophant Menzi Simelane, subverted to protect the ANC.
The HRC, subverted to do the ANC's bidding.
More giant strides taken towards South Africa becoming yet another African banana republic.

If one were to write a novel with this storyline, it would be to far fetched to swallow. JZ brags about how he will fight corruption, yet all we see are the fires being stoked.

BAE was found guilty by international courts of corruption with regards to the South African armsdeal.

And this side, we bury it.

Its good to be a connected ANC cadre, you steal, and then it gets covered up.

**** the anc.

Now we know exactly why the scorpions were disbanded, Pickoli fired and Simelane and Cele appointed and now the Information Bill and the media tribunal to close the loop. Do we not have any intelligent Africans that can see through all this corruption and vote accordingly?? I suppose when we become another failed African State they will still stand by the ANC and blame colonosation just as Mugabe does. It truly is sick and sad.

I wonder if our drones will say it isn't so, use the US and UK argument to justify the cover-up or simply ignore this article as they usually do when the indefensible is exposed

Who is meddling with justice here, it should not be seen as an attempt by the ruling party to muzzle the judiciary. otherwise i hope this journalists understands the principles upon which the chapter is closed that should be the first thing before concluding otherwise. on a more serious note its a pity that the NPA / HAWKS come to such open ended conclussions we dont need that type of reports people should be exonorated based on proper work done when investigations where launched.

Crutse - Reminds me of Jacob, and his guilt left hanging in the air.

Seems like the corrupt ANC dodged another bullet.

I am gald this sorry attempt to undermine our democracy has finallky been buried. The Scorpions were mostyly apartheid era operatives who wished to undermine our nascent democracy.

Well, well, well - only the likes of fawning sycophants like IvdW (or is it Kitty Kat) would find this welcoming.

Read all together we are heading fast for the dark ages. There is little difference across sub-saharan Africa as to how these so-called leaders rape and pillage their countries. You all deserve what is coming to you.

Welcome to Nigeria 2

@Isabella - In what way exactly would bringing the criminals responsible for the blatant theft of taxpayers money to justice, have undermined our democracy? You make absolutely no sense.

OMG you are beyond delusional Isabella, you obviously don't care that Billions of rands that could have been well used to uplift poor communities went into the pockets of ANC thieves. I can only assume that you are on that exclusive payroll

Some good will come out of this. If the present administration is involved in a cover-up, (and I put the stress on IF), then this cover-up will last only as long as this administration. The truth will come out eventually.

Personnaly, I would have loved a thorough, impartial and exhaustive investigation to exorcise the ghost of this dark shadow called "the Arms Deal."

There are just too many "smoking guns" still lying around that do not justify abandoning the investigation.

I think this was the right decision taken to finally close the investigation of this mater as it created number of perseptions about people. It is also lamentable that lots of money was waitsed in this fruitless exercise. However, It was also good that was done to clear the air from the populists who always associates individual achievements with corruption.This was equal to looking for a need in the sand which has not been lost at all.

No one should be surprised by this - the disbanding of the Scorpions was precisely to undermine the investigation into the arms deal, and into the criminal activities of ANC members generally. The Hawks have done the job they were put there to do at their masters' bidding.

Louis, your point made above is spot on: the ANC has become the largest crime syndicate in South Africa. The blatant suppression of the investigation into the arms deal has moreover been done with impunity. What is worse is that this utterly appalling abuse of power by the ANC will pass by largely unnoticed. The ANC are well and truly on their way to destroying democracy in South Africa - they are lying and thieving their way into power, with seemingly little to stop them. Note that Malema has ignored the ruling of the Equality Court and refuses to pay his fine. The arms deal and its cover up should cause riots in the street - not only has the ANC blatantly stolen billions of tax payer money, not only has it abused power, not only has it destroyed the institutions of democracy along the way (and the media is next in its sites) - it has also displayed an arrogance and contempt for the law and for the people of South Africa. This is scandalous.

Surprised? Shocked? Outraged? C'mon people, after Mpshe dropped corruption charges against Jacob Zuma and Shaik still waiting to die a dinified and consolatory death in the presence of his family and friends, this was always going to be the next most horrendous decision.

Cedric - So you assume now, because the probe is closed, that there wasnt corruption?

No, no, no. Dont be fooled.

It just shows that there is a lack of interest to actually prosecute corrupt politicians.

I guarantee ourTransparency International ratings just took a huge plunge

Now why do I not think so?

The ANC and Mr Dramat are in for some big, big surprises. It is and always will remain a matter of very substantial public interest and this issue will not be buried in this manner.

The obligations imposed by section 2 of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, 1996 are not being complied with. The very constitutional sovereinty of our nation is being undermined by this decision as is the very object of having votes to establish and mainatin a "one soverign demoicratic state', which has as object to ensure accountability, responsiveness and openess'. This cannot be tolerated by any person serious about our democracy.

Arms Deal probe dead. MAT coming soon. Then nationalization. At this rate, apartheid will suffer a complete death. No more arms deal to use to undermine black leadership. No more reckless newspaper reporting to undermine black leadership and more of the minerals' money to benefit all who live in SA

AMANDLA

@Themba Kumalo. I think you are probably right... but to leave so many unanswered quetions does little for trust or morale in many perspectives regarding the current ANC administration.

Bluntly Spoke - ' Arms Deal probe dead. MAT coming soon. Then nationalization. At this rate, apartheid will suffer a complete death. No more arms deal to use to undermine black leadership. '

Shocking!!!

@Isabella: 'I am gald this sorry....' Is that glad or galled ?
One can live with your opinions (it takes all sorts), but your spelling is really abysmal.

Ya neh, I wonder what this ANC criminals are thingking right now. That they do not care about our hard earned democracy and want to make sure that we quickly reaches the level of Zimbabwe; Seira Leone; DRC of this continent. NO NO NO NO NO AND BIG NO.

This is South Africa, come 2014 will vote another party into power and ensure that those who thought that they ran away with murder are broght to book. Zuma and his cronnies should watch out or else do the wright thing.

Somebody just got away with murder...wonder who that could be?

Blunt Spoke - the ANC has a habit of shitting on itself and promptly feels aggrieved when we complain about the stench. How much more bullshit (of which you're an avid contributor) do you think the country can withstand? What makes you think the rest of us are happy with how the government does business? You've chosen to cap your own thinking (the ability to make critical decisions is what separates us from plants). What a waste of all that potential.

The zuma led government is good for thing like these, nothing for the electorate, please people cant you see that zuma is unfit to rule SA.....

Ramosai for President!

Themba Khumalo's comment is wise and measured, as always. Isabella's comment is simply insane, to be polite. To describe an attempt to prosecute criminal behaviour which defrauded the nation, the poor, and the public as 'an attempt to undermine democracy' is like describing the honest policeman who tackles cash in transit heists by criminal gangs as attempting to undermine democracy. I have yet to see such a blatant defense of sheer criminality. SA is not yet a criminal state, but the arms deal was our gravest moral crisis yet, and has taken us a long way in that direction. And only the elite have benefited, at the expense of the poor.

jorotane libet - we've tried telling Zuma a thousand times but he just won't budge!

Dear @Bluntly your dream might soon be realised. Congratulations! Just don't come crying to anyone when you end up on the wrong end of a government that isn't held in check by citizens. You wanted the checks and balances gone, you get what you ask for both the good and the bad. Good luck.

RIP South Africa. The ANC is victor.

@Themba I appreciate your perspective, but how quickly have we forgotten Zille's corruption gridlock argument? That fairly reasonable perspective critically undermines any faith placed in the next administration. Until we see fresh blood (and rhetoric) in the ANC, combined with wholesale withdrawal of radical policies that only serve to entrench the ANC, I'm inclined to remain ANC negative despite the gloss of the African leadership ideal. Perhaps a term or two in the hands of the opposition is just what African leadership in SA needs to shirk off the cloak of mistrust?

Re-read "After the Party" by Andrew Feinstein, ex ANC MP, who revealed all of this corruption six years ago! Our once admired ANC is now but a bunch of thieves, and is the prime criminal organisation in South Africa in terms of stolen and blood money. No we are not Nigeria's No 2, we have just been promoted to the number one corrupt nation in Africa...and that is saying something!

What this corrupt ANC syndicate don't realise is that unlike Zimbabwe, there is not another country for the cheated masses to run to.

ZANUPF thought they would rule forever, but they steal elections now.
The NAT's thought they would rule forever.
The Nazi's thought their Reich would last forever.

Many of our population are badly educated, but that doesn't make them stupid. The anger and insults that was directed at the ANC by alliance partners & strikers recently show that there are many who are beginning to see through the lies of the ANC.
Just like other corrupt third world countries the ANC has politicised crime fighting agencies to protect themselves.

The ANC will carry on with rampant corruption.
The ANC can not deliver on service delivery, rampant corruption will see to that.
Education will get much worse.
Unemployment will increase.
Poverty will grow.

The ANC , just like ZANUPF will lie and play the racial card.
Like Zimbabwe, eventually the masses will stop believing the lies.
And like I pointed out there is nowhere else for the masses to go, so their only option will be to rise up against this crime syndicate masquerading as a political party.
It might be a while yet. It will happen in our lifetime, though.
Eventually these corrupt ANC scum will pay.

Bottomline, the ANC sold out South Africa, to European arms companies. The ANC top dawgs, sold their souls, for money.

Isabella/Blunt/Crutse - hope you got top dollar for your souls.

These sort of things go on all over the world.
None of you white racists moan and groan over teh fact that Tony Blair stopped an investigation into the BA arms deal with Saudi.
The amrs industry works like that. However the ANC had no choice. South Africa needs a well armed military to function as an independent state. All this moaning is just a lot of disgruntled DA types trying to undermine our democracy.

Sin - yes, they got a food parcel and a chinese made t-shirt

A suggestion to our commentators - let our comments be relevant to the subject of arms deals and corrupt arms deals (which requires a bit of research and intellectual effort) rather just than the usual party politics and racial mud-slinging (which any moron can indulge in, requiring no effort or thought,and many do). So here are some arms deals with elements of corruption to compare with SA's - the recent Saudi deal with the UK, the Lockheed deal with West Germany during the Cold War, various other Middle East deals. Have a look where the corruptors and corruptees were exposed, where senior execs even resigned, and when others were swept under the carpet. Decide where SA now fits in the larger scheme of things.

Oh oh: can we just build a institution for all these apartheid loyalists and sympathisers they never look at the issues based on the reports presented they are so obsessed with the ANC and its leaders that i think they even walk dream them. we never said they should come up with a system that would expolode in their faces. yes it is good that all those apartheid operatives and personnel are flashed they thought they will sabotage this government with their DeLAREY lyrics. can somebody please remind me of the debts inherrited by the ANC after 1994 who benefited and what did those monies do, they created spoilt brats that want to bluff us with illgotten capacities, now their offspring are disrespecful to this is too much tolerance. There is a Chinese proverb that says "IF YOU OPEN YOUR WINDOW WITH THE INTENTION OF LETTING FRESH AIR COME IN, YOU UNINTENTIONALLY ALSO ALLOW FLYS AND MOSQUITOES TO COME AND PESTER YOU" how true.

The take home message: "Vasbyt, and you can see your crimes buried. If you just hold on when it looks bad for you, no matter how great the evidence of your evil, you can suppress it. And now you have experience to do it more efficiently next time."


There will be a next time. The victory for these treacherous thieves has been too great. They'll try again now for certain.


My only hope is that independent investigators will someday expose their wrong-doing beyond even the doubts of faith-blind ANC supporters. Let them die in the knowledge that their children and their nation are ashamed of them. That's what I hope.


The Rainbow Nation for them was just an opportunity to steal the pot of gold.

Isabella - This isnt the UK isabella.

Why would we complain about UK corruption? Unless of course it affects South Africa.

What you dont realise is, when your ANC steals money, it actually steals from the poor.

You are the counter-revolutionary.

@ Bluntly Spoke. You have the IQ of dry tree bark if you think that all those things are to the benefit of the public. Sounds like a case of cutting off your nose to spite your face to me.
So, what's life like on your planet? Must be sublime for you to be living in such blissful ignorance?

Crutse - Love how to try and draw attention off your ANC and corruption, by going on about apartheid and whatever else.

You are ignorant, and a deceiver.

How much did you get paid for your soul?

Quo Vadis, our comments ARE relevant to the subject matter, a corrupt ANC hellbent on destroying every vestige of truth, hinesty and justice in this land to cover up their criminality. It is uinfortunate the ANC drones here can only counter with racist diatribe - they have nothing else, after all, one cannot defend the indefensible

On a point of logic "The amrs industry works like that. However the ANC had no choice. " Rubbish, absolute rubbish. The ANC, the government and the nation had every choice. We could have had a clean deal, at the best price, with no corruption. Sure the European corruptors were rotten, offering Mercedes Benx 4 by 4s to greedy and parasitic politicians. But our politicians were just as rotten, angling for bribes, asking quite blatantly for kickbacks, discounts, 500k per annum retainers (it's all there in the faxes which are in the public domain, read them out of interest), awarding tenders at inflated prices (60m USD + per Gripen, which has a list price of 30m USD at the time). And to those defending corruption out of political loyalty, out of sheer perversity, because you actually like crime and criminals (?) - you are the reason why the poor are still poor. Think how many schools, hospitals, clinics could have been built. Try to take off your party hat. As Leo Emery said to Chamberlain, when he tried to give reasons why not to stand up to the Nazis "Stop speaking for the PARTY, Neville. Speak for ENGLAND!"

There is no substantial evidence of corruption depite the frenzied efforts of the Special Branch ( Scorpions) to find it amd implicate our leaders. SA is a sovereign state which needs a functioning army to defend us. By the sounds of so many vitrolic posters here we may even need to defend ourselves against the enemy within.
These sort of hate filled postings are what underly the white racists who beat up blacks and urninate in food. The white who buy Bok vnn Dork's CD and joing the amred right wing.

This is exactly what the ANC has worked towards,another coverup!!ZIM here we come.JZ and his cronnies will continue as long as they are in power.PEOPLE, we have the power!!THE VOTE!!We have a census count next year before the 2012 elections.WHY DO YOU THINK THAT IS???? A-African ,N-National,C-Criminals!!!

"These sort of things go on all over the world."
Yes, and I'm glad. At least we are not the only corrupt ones. Lets all jump into the fire.
"None of you white racists moan and groan over teh fact that Tony Blair stopped an investigation into the BA arms deal with Saudi."
No we don't. I think we should...it is very applicable to South-Africa after all.
"The amrs industry works like that."
Yes it does, thats why we should also do corrupt things in this industry."
"However the ANC had no choice. South Africa needs a well armed military to function as an independent state."
Absolutely, especially if Lesotho decide to invade us, or one of our comrades from the north."
"All this moaning is just a lot of disgruntled DA types trying to undermine our democracy."
Thats correct, these people don't know nothing about democracy and how the corrupt weapons industry work, they should rather shut-up - better yet, lets bring in the communist policies, that should shut down there freedom of speech.

Isabella....Where there's smoke, there's fire. What are you on about? They're stealing food out of YOUR mouth, but you defend them? Take off your blinkers.

Isabella - Hows this for evidence:

"BAE pleads guilty over armsdeal corruption"

http://www.politicsweb.co.za/politicsweb/view/politicsweb/en/page71656?oid=166477&sn;=Detail

How much did you get for your soul isabella?

All the whites who whine on about the arms deal were all perfectly happy with the widespread corruption that was fostered during apartheid. People like Louis Luyt were given huge back handers by the Nats. So was Sol Kerzner. That was fine why because these people were white. Now we have frothing at the mouth over alleged corruption that has never been proved. Fortunately the ANC does not have to rely on these disgruntled posturing types for it's mandate. The ANC remains the party of teh poor and marginalized. You cannot fool them.

FINALLY!

I'm tired of this Arms deal fiasco...we got bigger problems to deal with i.e. AIDS, Poverty e.t.c.

Don't get me wrong at all, we all know there was corruption but why waste taxpayers money in legal matters when nobody ever gets convicted? It's time to face the reality that some(JZ) are more equal than others.

Isabella - What about jacob saying the following:

"I was smallfry in the armsdeal".

Oopsie, Jacob admitted he is corrupt.

Again Isabella turns to racist jibes when her back is against the wall. I pity you Isabella, really I pity you

@sinudeity Unforunately love iam principled and for that matter have a political consciouss i dont get bribed to join a political party and if that is what you think of any ANC supporter than you must be a pathethic spoilt brat. the truth once more in all what the dissidents are commenting on shows why we needed to tranform the judiciary they only want to apply laws that please them it is a fact we are still indebted because of apartheid and none of its benneficiaries want to admit that, why so its because they invested on those gains and are still crying for more milk. what a greedy bunch of hypocrites

Isabella - Your party is corrupt, and all you can do is attack white people.

You are ignorant Isabella. Whoever said elders were wise people, were wrong.

So Isabella admits that there is corruption. And that's OK, because the NATS did it. What a gem.

Crutse - So we must change the laws to allow the ANC corruption to continue?!

You have no principles Bigman. You sold your principles for a profit. Just like the ANC.

You keep trying to divert to apartheid, instead of focussing on the fact that your ANC STOLE money from South Africa.

You are morally corrupt dude.

There is always corruption in politics. It is the art of the possible.
Look at the list Bill Clinton( Whitewater) Berloscuni, Tony Blair and Mandelson, George Bush and deals with Saudi. Where big money is changing hands so the corporations will try and influence. You lot are selective about what you complain of. I seem to remeber the DA being involved in high jinks with developing golf courses in the Cape Colony.
So the answer remains I still believe the ANC is teh only part capable of truly transforming SA. We have made great progress over the lat 16 years and will continue to do so. Madame Medusa and her party of embittered racists will spit impotentlty from the sidelines of history.

I see ANC sycophants are playing the race card today.

Oh boy, obviously they don't have any other cards to play.

Another day in RSA. If you are not connected will get locked up for not paying a traffic fine, or stealing a loaf of bread. But if you are connected, you can steal billions, all you have to do is be patient and it will all go away.
To top it off, if there is some feeble attempt to convict those thieves, it is the taxpayer who foots the bill.
And we call these rogues civil servants!!

Isabella
(since my first response didn't appear)
-These sort of things go on all over the world.
(Yes, and we must do the same, be corrupt that is.)
-Tony Blair stopped an investigation...
(Thats right, we should. It is so applicable to South-Africa.)
-The amrs industry works like that....
(Thanks for clearing that up. We didn't know that you have to be corrupt to deal in arms.)
-South Africa needs a well armed military...
(Yes, especially if Lesotho or the comrades from the north invade us).
-DA types trying to undermine our democracy.
(So true. Lets implement some communist policies, take away there free speech, that will make them understand democracy).

In fact, it would be interesting if all the previous arms deals done in SA history were investigated. There is no reason why it can't be done. This would get past the level of party politics and the IQ's of < 70 who defend the current corruption. I would be interested to know if the 1977 deals with France (PW Botha's deals via 3rd parties) had any bribes or kickbacks, and if those were payments by the state to the arms companies given the UN embargo, or whether they were payments to SA politicians. Apparently the 77 deal secured Mirage F1's at 25m rand each, which was a good price at the time. Would it not be the supreme irony if the deals by thuggish securocrats under PW Botha's illegitimate regime were found to be 'clean' and free of bribes? For the sake of the nation's moral standing, I would almost hope that those old deals were found to be full of bribery and corruption - at least giving a certain moral equivalence if not moral superiority to the new regime.

Actually Isabella it was ANC officials involved in Golf Estate deals in the WC and he was fired for this by the DA

Eish, these apartheid relics are trying to justify corruption.

Cant think with logic, so they try and play with emotions.

Fela @ 11:25 am

JZ isn't even our equal boet.
Mandela is a MAN.
Bishop Tutu is a MAN.

JZ, a grown adult who thinks showering is a form of contraception, and who shags the daughters of his friends.
I wouldn't even insult my saliva by spitting on him.

It seems to me in these debates, as usual, that the primary divide is not between those of one party or another, or even between those supporting one position or another. It is between the ignorant and the less ignorant. The ignorant, without fail, have no facts and take no trouble to engage in the point as to whether the arms deal was corrupt, and whether corruption is actually a great thing. They simply accuse all others of being racists (wow that must have taken some serious intellectual effort. Wonder how long it came to think that one up?) or say Party X or Y is great or crap (which is also really hard to think up, but actually isn't the question being debated). The other 'half' come up with good points - across all viewpoints. Seems the real divide is not 'the digital divide' but 'the IQ divide' which cuts neatly across all races, parties and viewpoints. A great relief in many ways.

Under that racist Smith regime in Zimbabwe people like Tiny Rolnds and van der Byyl made vast fortunes out of the suffering of black people and white conscripts who had to pay the ultimate price for racism. The apartheid security forces made money illegally selling ivory and game from the "operational area".
The Selous socuts in Zimbabwe pulled the same stunt.
We all forget the information scandal here where the Nats used tax payers money to prop up the Citizen. I don't think anyone will find the previous regime to be clean of corruption.

Perhaps the other legal angle, for those who have considered it, is that any private citizen standing trial for charges relating for fraud, corruption, bribery or destruction of evidence (shredded faxes etc) is legally entitled to advance the 'tu quoque' defence - that the state itself has committed similar crimes and hence is not legitimately entitled to convict anyone else on similar charges. A serious and disturbing state of affairs, and one that casts doubt on the state's legitimacy in the broader sense.

Mission Accomplished!! Expect a very high Presidential Award to be pinned on Anwa Dramat's chest in a few year's time. (And there'll be REward, too, of course).

Now the state is illegitimate.
That is treason by the sounds of things.
Licky we live in democracy where people can openly say things like that without fear. Now who do we owe that to I wonder.
Why the ANC

Isabella, you have really outdone yourself this time. You ADMIT that the ANC are corrupt, and that they have stolen BILLIONS from the taxpayer, but it's all ok because the Nats were also corrupt? Is this how far your expectations have fallen? We were supposed to do things differently after the end of apartheid. How depressing that we have exchanged one greedy corrupt bunch of a**holes for another. No one on this column is suggesting that corruption anywhere is OK, nor that the arms industry is corrupt to the core. But how that justifies the blatant theft of billions (yes billions) of rands from the poor person in the street beats me. How can you call yourself a Christian and defend the theft, lies and plunder of the ANC? it is really disgraceful. Children are dying in badly run hospitals because the ANC sold them out for arms. Read 'After the Party' and 'Follow the Money' - two books that lay out in great detail the clear evidence for corruption. All you ANC sycophants make me sick - what you are really saying is 'we don't give a damn about the people of South Africa - black or white - just as long as it's black people themselves who are doing the thieving and looting, and not the white racists.' If this is the nature of your principles, your 'christianity' is worth nothing.

Isabella - And now the ANC is making a profit off the suffering of black South Africans.

Isabella - is it 'treason' to SAY the state is illegitimate but quite acceptable to DESTROY the institutions of democracy?

(And if the ANC get their way with MAT, the last vestiges of freedom of speech will go the way of the arms deal probe -- into the sewer).

I'm afraid that the liberators have themselves become as corrupt and power-mad as the racist Nats before them. Read Orwell's 'Animal Farm' - as true of post-apartheid SA as it was of Stalin's Russia.

Isabella
You love the ANC and hate the NAT's, so you think that people that are disgusted by the ANC must have loved the NAT's.
You are such a simpleton.
That NAT's are history. What kind of moronic logic makes it okay to accept corruption because it has happened previously.
Bloody hell, the NAT's were small time crooks when you compare them to the ANC.

John
The Battle for SOuth Africa is within the ANC not outside it.
You lot do not really care about the people of SA. You are just trying to undermine the country because you want to see it fail as you hate balcks so much. If you wish to engage teh place to do so is within the ANC. The apartheid governement handed over power to the ANC after having looted the place. This is their legacy. Poor hospitals, dysfunctional education. SO it is like amputating some-ones feet and then telling them to run the comrades. Unfortunatley this story is typical of post colonial Africa. The colonial powers took everything and then handed over teh empty shell. Now they say well blacks cannot run the place. Well I believe like Malcolm X did that we have to do it by ourselves. You lot want to run to a white Madam becuase she will know best. That ain't going to happen.
Why not focus on some of the positive things. A successful world cup, an economy that resisted the recession created by clever white people in America and Britain. A new nation developing and addressing the ills of the past. Ils which it did not create. Unfortunatley your hatred of black people blinds you.

Isabella Van der Westhuizem on October 15, 2010, 11:24 am

Izzy, the Nats are gone. In fact, tha Nats are now in the ANC. The Nats screwed SA and blacks back then and the ANC is screwing SA and blacks now. JZ and his circus are taking us for a ride.

But guess what, theres nothing you or I or anyone can do about the Nats looting the state coffers. Its in the past. There is, however, PLENTY we can do about this ANC screwing us, dont you think? Imagine if this arms money was spent on eradicating mud schools or on moving Eskom away from coal or on proper land reform programs or better training teachers etc etc etc etc....!!!!

No Isabella, thats where you make the gravest error, its BECAUSE we care about the people of South Africa - ALL the people of South Africa that we challenge the corrupt ANC. But you don;t get that, your tiny racist mind only sees what it wants

Isabella: 'You lot do not really care about the people of SA. You are just trying to undermine the country because you want to see it fail as you hate balcks so much.' My my Isabella - for such a devout Christian, you display such contempt for your fellow human being - how DARE you say such a despicable and racist thing about me. I am disgusted. If I hated South Africa, I would be thrilled that the ANC are destroying the country piece by piece; I would be delighed that the shoddy service delivery is allowing babies to die, destroying families because of HIV / AIDS; I would have left long ago, and would not devote hours of my time doing community work, nor donating money to charities. Your arrogance to presume to speak on my behalf indicates just how narrow your thinking is - 'if you are not for the ANC you are against South Africa.' My my, you are well brainwashed. There is no doubt that the Nats were despicable, but that the ANC are carrying on in their legacy is a horror too awful to contemplate - no wonder the likes of you blame the messenger.

Do me a favour: go back to your christian principles and learn to love your neighbour - maybe that will get rid of the vitriol in your soul, which you direct towards anyone who disagrees with you. And don't you ever dare call me or others who oppose the ANC racists - that is dirty politics of the worst kind, and only shows you up as a fool.

You lot pretend to be naive school boys. It is verye asy posting on blogs but not so easy negotitaing the murky world of politcs and finance when you actually call the shots. Read Machiavelli for some insight. On the other ANC bashing blog everyone was demanding that the ANC anatagoize China by congratulating this dissident with the funny name. So the ANC must now jeopardize investment and trade to score a point. Why doesn't Obersfuherer Zille do it in her role as premier of teh Cape Colony. Make it clear that Chinese money is not welcome in Cape Town. She won't do it why because she realizes it is easy to talk the talk but not so easy to actually do something. None of you want to engage with teh ANC which is the organization which brought liberation to this land. For better or worse the dispossesed majority have faith in this organization. They have no faith in a party run by white racists. WHy is that becuase white racist parteis ran SA for 300 years and always made black people poorer and poorer. Now you want us to forget 300 years of corruption and maladministration. You either live in Africa or you don't

Oh Isabella shut up. You dig a hole deeper and deeper for yourself in every blog you write - defending the ANC's appalling behaviour by trying to justify it when it is indefensible. For someone who purports to have such high morals, it's embarrassing to see how easily you are prepared to erode human rights to defend the ANC. It wasn't so long ago that people overseas were fighting the good fight on behalf of the oppressed in South Africa - now you are saying that since we have won those freedoms here, we must forget about human rights in China? And you call yourself a christian? You have no morals.

Isabella, why do you keep bringing up black vs. white? Are you trolling? Your response to John doesn't really make sense, please use punctuation, so we all can understand what you are trying to debate/say. You say a new nation is developing, and we applaud and embrace that...however, we don't want to end up with the same government as the previous one. By your comments, it seems that you support exactly that, or do you? Do you want another "NAT" government, benefiting only a few?

Put it this way my fervent and strident detractors. If the ANC were to evaporate tomorrow who do you think is going to run this country. The DA? Give us all a break. The DA has no support base,it is a niche party. Politics is always messy. Compromises need to be made. The ANC has the trust of the people of SA it expresses their aspirations. Maybe it makes mistakes. Hey any party of frail human beings will but it has always found renewal. That is why it is 98 years old. We go forward. The legacy of apartheid is not to be undone overnight. But we will do it.

My word, Isabella has played the race card more than anyone else combined so far today.

Hee! he! he! he!he!. Well done Mr Dramat! Hate to say this but I said so! This investigation had nothing to do with its criminal aspects but rather about politics. Those who are crying foul are doing so on a political front. Immediately it started to have political influence it lost the plot. Good riddance! The Germans should investigate their corrupt people and let us be.The people who are trumpeting clean governance have themselves or at least most of them been beneficiaries of corrupt governance. They are still reaping the rewards of that even today. Most of us would not even notice the difference even if the investigation had continued. The would be expert investigators were party to or silent to past activities of corruption and theft and have now suddenly become active experts. Hypocrites! Have past activities proscribed, if not why are they allowed to die a silent death? Some erstwhile corrupt individuals are living on hefty pension payouts up until today and their spoilt children are living high life at our expense and now are finding the gravy train crowded by other people.

Isabella - The battle for South Africa, inside the ANC is already lost. The good people lost, and the corrupt ANC elites won.

Its now up to everyone else, outside the ANC to fight for morals and good governance, and democracy.

For someone who hated the NP, you sure use skin colour alot to defend your points. Just like the NATS.

Sipiwo Pahlane, in other words - you are condoning the corruption. As long as it's done by "other" people. Because thats what you basically are saying in your post.

Finally!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why pay R10 to recover R1. Cut the loss and go on. We need all the resources and money to fight crime, drug abuse and gangsters.
I can't care less if these fraudsters are brought to book or not, I need law enforcement in this country to make me feel safe again.
Fraud is and always was a part of all business in South Africa and most of us are guilty in one way or another.

Pahlane - You also sold your soul, along with the ANC, to european arms companies. For a profit.

John when it come to politics morality is very complex. The Allies bombed Germany flat and dropped two atoms bombs on Japan. Pretty nasty stuff. Some say these were war crimes. Some of you lot slay the PAC for the St James massacare but fail to mention Sharpeville of Cassinga. Agent Orange is a defoliant not chemical warfare. My my it is complex. In the old days Kings would keep their sacrament of confession for their death bed as they knew by ruling they were going to have to do morally dubious things. Only the naive or those who withdraw form politics can avoid having to make moral compromises. This is what thsi decision is. A moral compromise. No gain will be made by pursuing it. Why becuase if thsi government were to disappear you would have a complete power vaccuum which the poor little spiteful and impotent DA could definitley not fill. So you have to engage within the ANC. Why do you think there are such vigorpus debates there? Vavi, Malema, Emanuel all have different philopopihes but they debate within the party. Only the ANC can dleiver change. So that is why I say you are all racisst. You cannot stand the ANC. You want to remain outside in a group where whites dominate and throw stones. You knolw you will never have teh burden and responsibility of power so you just impotently fume away and rant on about freedom of teh press.

Sipiwo, you are living in a fantasy land. You seem to think that because corruption and racism happened in the past, anything goes? Where is your logic? It's amazing to me not only that people like you exist, but that you don't even recognise the appalling moral situation you are defendnig! you are happy to put your names to comments that would make Goebbels proud.

Isabella, you are delusional. Please ask for stronger meds...

Isabella you are just an old Nat in new ANC clothing. Thats exactly what the old Nats said about any party in opposition - If the ruling party were to disappear, there is no one else capable of running the country...........way back in the 60's and 70's. And you say politics is always messy? In this country you can be a total fool with no matric, no degree, no brains and become a politician and a complete mampara at the same time. I'd like to see British & EU politicians accomplish as much with as little.

isabella - the claim that debate can happen only within the ANC is exactly the kind of fascist rhetoric that underlies your disdain for democracy. Your statement that 'You cannot stand the ANC. You want to remain outside in a group where whites dominate and throw stones' is pure rubbish. You know nothing about me. I voted for the ANC when they first came into power!! And don't insult me by saying that 'politics is complex and dirty and we have to compromise'. The Arms Deal was CORRUPTION THROUGH AND THROUGH - WHAT COMPROMISE ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?? Most of the weapons were bought against the advice of the army and the navy? We bought more expensive weapons than were needed because the ANC wanted kickbacks. If you are happy to debate issues within the ANC, where is the debate? Why are you not happy to continue with the investigation? I'll tell you why: you are not interested in democracy, but power. As long as the ANC and a black majority is in power, you will lie, dissimulate and deceive yourself in every way possible while allowing flagrant human rights abuses to continue unabated. that is the real truth, i'm afraid.

I am actually convinced that Isabella / Moxster et all are just trolling you lot, and you keep feeding them. Somewhere there's a 14 year kid laughing their butts off at your oh-so serious responses, after all, the dribble they spout is actually too ridiculous to be meant in a serious light. The people with differing viewpoints who should and can be engaged in a discussion are Themba Khumalo etc. But nevermind, go and enjoy yourselves...

Some commentators are just naive and ignorant Period now they want us to take that flake with them. the biggest questions to ask is did morality became fashionable under the ANC rule, Is Corruption a new phenomenon, what souls did they have under apartheid let alone the freedom to critisise. now they want to lobby and advocate for the poor to wheras they moved out of residences when blacks started to move into their surburbs, their children cant use the same facilities as other races that is what they want to protect on our soil and turf who started stealing and looting and still had the guards to kill those outspoken. Selective Amnesia is not working, you are afraid the ANC may end up as you did, well its gonna be different they account to the majority and know the waepons the masses can use to bring a desired change.

Its a stupid argument. If the Nats did it, its ok if the ANC does it. I mean, you spent the whole day, trying to show us that the ANC is not like the apartheid government.

But now, its ok if the ANC is like the NP.

Whoever thought the current government was gonna emulate the previous TM one in using risky measures to deal with internal political enermies is naive. The Arms Deal happened early in the post-liberation life of our country and logically, I suspect, ethical lines were crossed. I would be more worried about allegation of corruption in recent deals. Close the matter, Cde Damat.

big...bigger...biggest
small...smaller...smallest
large...larger...largest
dumb...dumber...Isabella

why do you carry on answering robotic idiots trolls like kitty et company? don´t you have anything better to do on a friday?pleeease.. get out to catch some air, there are some battles worth fighting for, answering them is not one of them...

Bigman - why aren't YOU outraged by the theft of the ANC? Why are you happy to have your money stolen to line the fad cat politicians coffers? If all you can do is try and discredit the opposition, you deserve the ANC. And how the hell do you know that those of us who are fighting corruption in the ANC did not fight against the nats? Do you know all the commentators? You are like a child blaming the messenger. Grow up.

A few points and issues that The Moxster wishes to raise, so please bear with him:

How easy it is for the minority to bleat about the current regime’s arms deal ad ‘nausea’, but when we point out to them the evils of apartheid and more importantly its legacy that we still endure today and for many years to come, the same minority tells us that apartheid is in the past. That we should forget about.
They are apartheid denialists first, apartheid apologists second.

They want to conveniently forget apartheid, but not the arms deal.
Comparing the two, it would not take rocket science to deduce which was the greater evil, yet they easily want to forget the part they played and the benefits they still derive from that most vile of inhumane crimes against one people by another.

How easy they want to keep on brining up the current regime’s arms deal, but when we point out the arms deals between the apartheid regimes of South Africa and Israel, we are shot down in similar fashion.

This is double thinking/standards.

They tell us the TRC dealt with the issues of apartheid effectively.
We tell them the TRC was ineffective and a joke.
They, however, then say that the initials arms deal investigation, which found no wrongdoing, was a joke, and find it more than adequate to dismiss apartheid into the annals of history, without the due recourse we deserve.

This is double thinking/standards.

With regards to the arms deal, a decision has to be made at some point as to the merits of continuing with these investigations, which is utilising resources which could be best suited elsewhere, in dealing with our current socio-political and socio-economic problems. A decision needs to be made, by the govt, to ascertain whether it would be feasible to continue with investigations, based on allegations at this point, and of what significance would it be. In other words, is it in the best interests of the people to waste any more time by looking for needles in haystacks, when there are more pressing issues? This is the essence of Comrade Dramat’s suggestion.
If the arms deal issue was as ‘open as shut’ as it is alleged, surely there would’ve been progress by now. But, alas, there has been none, only more and more conspiracy theories and he-says, she-says fantasy stories.

However, it does seem that the current regime is ready to put this arms deal fiasco to rest.

However, if there is a section of society who feels that there is enough merit in investigating this arms deals ‘injustice’ to them, they should and are more than able to file a civil suit against the parties that be. This is an option, which they are more than able to exercise. There is a very good example, currently, of this happening with Hugh Glenister challenging the disbanding of The Scorpions in a civil case.

In closing to those few: if you feel it is your rightful duty to engage in the arms deal saga, then it is too your duty to allow “us” to engage and regurgitate the evils of your apartheid regime and the damage it has done and continue to do, the effects of which our people live with each and every day..

Thank you!

@Isabella Van der Westhuizem on October 15, 2010, 12:37 pm

I fail to see how the looting of the state by the Nats is relevant anymore. We are 16 years further down the line and now the next regime is looting. Furthermore, stealing from the state to enrich yourself is exactly that...you enrich your self and your cronies. I've never heard of the Nats distributing there stolen monies for free amongst whites while they were in power here?!

Good thing we all have a choice now, thanks to democracy, that we can do something about THIS regime enriching themselves and their cronies at yours and my expense! Its called the vote!

also, about "only the ANC can bring change"... read this http://www.timeslive.co.za/local/article681683.ece/You-cant-park-that-skedonk-here

It basically boils down to:
(from pws80's comment) in a five year period:

The ANC get into debt to the tune of R11 million to eskom.
The next five years the DA pay of R9 million of this debt.

The DA Mayor spends R50,000 a year of his "entertainment budget, mostly on pauper funerals
The ANC mayor spends R500,000 a year on parties and bling

The DA build 1970 RDP houses in 3 years
The ANC build 78 INCOMPLETE houses 4 years

The DA mayor uses his own 1400 bakkie
The ANC mayor writes off one new Merc, then rents and Audi for almost R1 MILLION, before buying a new Audi this year from BAILOUT money.

The DA mayor, speaker, and and their shared secretary used one office for all three of them.
The ANC mayor not only commandeer the biggest office for herself, she then spend R135,000 redoing it (mm, at least it was not R2 million like the GP clown in charge).

The DA speaker had a staff of 5, cutting overheads.
The ANC speaker has a staff of 12

The amount of private infrastructure investment under DA governance was TEN TIMES more than under ANC rule.

The DA required NO financial lifelines from the province.
The ANC required THREE over a 4 year period (last one being R5 million)


Conclusion:

The DA spent more on social development, paid off most of the debt and built massive additional infrastructure during their tenure.

Off an expanded rates base, the ANC build nothing, got into even more debt, required THREE multi milion rand bailouts, and are now under administration because they are bankrupt.

@Isabella

I see you have made MANY MANY contributions to this debate. Which is exactly what I would expect from you as an employee of the ANC publicity dept. After all, this is one of those issue where you have to get a lot of red herrings, counter arguments etc out into the public domain to attempt to hide/dilute the disgust and disquiet that honest and ethical South Africans feel.

Moxster - Difference is, apartheid got overthrown.

Id just like to point out, that the Armsdeal has NOTHING to do with apartheid.

Its merely the ANC fanboys who CANT defend the corruption, that they think they can bring up apartheid as a worthy defense.

Mox, please tell me what the connection is between the armsdeal and apartheid.

Never mind chaps, Jesus is coming real soon and then we will reopen the investigations and chuck all these criminals in jail.

Moxster, don't paint all ANC critics with the same brush. that's called labelling. Andrew Feinstein is the ANC's greatest critic over the arms deal. So stop blaming the critics and start getting angry with the people who are stealing your hard earned money and using it to buy luxury cars for themselves -- and yes, I mean Zuma and his corrupt comrades.

The fun thing is Jesus will come an he'll laugh at Isabella and co when they line up to be taken into His Kingdom

Hey Moxter & Isabella

How is this for mud in your faces.
The ANC has been in power for 16years.
The DA has only been running the Western Cape a fraction of that time.
Do you know that the Auditor Generals Report has just been issued?
Guess which province recieved the cleanest report of all nine provinces?

(DRUM ROLL PLEASE)

The province run by the DEMOCRATIC ALLIANCE has been given the cleanest audit.
How are you twits going to blame that on 'apartheid' and 'racism'

Proof that the ANC is rubbish.

any investigation involving political meddling is likely to end like this. No surprise.

ANC = Anarchy, Nepotism, Crime
and this is their legacy to South Africa

Mox,
thanks for that post and contribution. I only had to read it once to understand what you are saying. Unlike some of your comrades that just blah blah with no logic or punctuation.
1.ARMS DEAL VS APARTHEID: You are comparing apartheid to the arms deal, basically saying, "well our mistake is less evil than yours". Is that really how you see this? I think the difference between alleged arms deals of today and those of the previous regime is that the previous regime actually believed they had a legit enemy and needed the "hardware". We don't have any enemies today. That's just my opinion.
2.TRC: Funny enough, the AWB also thought the TRC was a joke. I however believe their main aim was reconciliation, which was achieved with some success.
3.ARMS DEAL: Agree, let's do what is best for the people on ground and learn from our mistakes. However, lets not forget that decision today will have long and lasting impacts. In other words - what if the same happens again in say 2020. Can we then say, but in 2010 we had a similar case and it was thrown out.
4.TIT for TAT ARGUMENT: Refer point one above. Remember, most people don't want another "NATS" Government. That's is why we will "attack" any wrong doing by any government institution (from president down to local government official). Can you understand that?
Thanks

The DA is trying to exclude blacks from the Western Cape that much is obvious to a blind man. You lot are too much. Everyone must just forget about 300 years when the whiteman rpaed and pillaged and just carry on as normal. Please give us all a break it does not work like that. We have to undo the structural inequalities that keep our people shackeeled.
I do not get a salary from Luthuli House.
The ANC seldom bothers with the veiws of racsist reactionary whites. They are too busy out engaging with the poorest of the poor. Doing thigs like putting in running water and the like.

And she's back - scrapping the barrel, playing the race card.

My, I would love to be a politician in SA. There is a perverse irony in that the more venal and criminal our politicians are (let's try to forget about the ANC, the Republicans and the Flat Earth parties so we can engage brains more effectively), the more stridently they are defended. In a sense, our voters, many of whom I am sure are not idiots, are like turkeys voting for Christmas. By not only supporting but actively encouraging the tubby politician to drive his large Mercedes Benz acquired thru the arms deal (at last some relevance to the subject), we are saying 'stuff the poor'. 'Stuff good government'. 'Stuff honesty'. And the only real logic I can see in favour of this seems to be the idea that this is some form of crude 'racial vengeance', hardly an intelligent sentiment. It's kind of like burning down your own house to spite your neighbour. Is it smart? Is it wise? Surely SA's leaders and voters are capable of better. Samuel Taylor's Liberia had a slogan 'He killed my ma, he killed my pa, he burned down my house. But I will vote for him'. Is this an extreme example of 'Stockholm syndrome' or hostage syndrome, where the more abusive and corrupt a leader is, the more people support him? If so, why? I would like psychologists to offer an answer, as it defies normal standards of rational behaviour.

It is wrong to close the case, but I am glad it is done. I have no confidence in the current institutions prosicuting top ANC polititians. It just won't happen in the current leadership so its a waste of money.

The truth will however come out.It always does. There are more and more legal cases where people are prosicuted years later and I am sure the honest people in SA will pursue the truth. The Arms deal is not dead, merely resting.

Isabella - The DA is trying to exclude black folks from the WCape?

LOL, Im guessing thats why folks from the ECape are moving here by the truckloads.

it is just a thought running: my observation is that old age homes are full of a certain race, the question is why and the probable answer the children cant take the whinning and amnesia. its my take that many commentators of the M&G; will end there disgruntled and lonely Apartheid did more damage to them than it did to the oppressed. they never cared about anyone except for themselves now they are suddenly reformed what a chick.

Why am I not surprised you come from the Western Cape Sin.
The western Cape was always kept as a preserve for the white man.
The eatern Cape has for two centuries been undermined and empoverished. You wish that to be over in 16 years.

Isabella @ 2:12

Just when I thought you couldn't get any more stupid, you come out with this pearl...
"The DA is trying to exclude blacks from the Western Cape..."

You are so stupid you don't realise the inherent racism of your argument. You imply that the Western Cape is a well run province because the DA is keeping blacks out of it.
I have had a senile dog that had more brains than you.

Isabella - "We have to undo the structural inequalities that keep our people shackeeled." The truth is that the ANC depends on the dependencies of exactly the same people to which you refer. The people will remain 'shackeeld' because how else will the ANC stay in power (lessons learnt from Mugabe and other dictators).

You deny getting a salary from Luthuli house but it's clear that the perks are excellent (doesn't matter where the loot is coming from).

Isabella - Im actually from Gauteng. I dont think you've made one accurate assumption about me yet isabella.

Reflecting on the psychology of individuals - a rational explanation as to why individuals (not races, please!) would, if given the choice between voting for Team A - Barack Obama and Oprah Winfrey on the one side, or Team B -a criminal drug-dealer and a semi-retarded teenage prostitute on the other (assume all of the same race, to keep the ceteris paribus argument) , if given the choice. The only reason for voting for Team B would be a sense of such deep-seated personal inferiority, that creates a sense of kinship or identity with Team B. Is that a possible argument? We set our standards so low as we have such very low regard for ourselves? Does that explain some of the dynamics of SA's identity politics?

@Isabella 2.12pm: "The ANC seldom bothers with the veiws of racsist reactionary whites. They are too busy out engaging with the poorest of the poor. Doing thigs like putting in running water and the like." HA HA HA HAH HA HA YES RIGHT ISABELLA. The ANC have stolen billions of rands of public money, so that there is very little money left to give to the poor. Just ask the mothers of the poor babies that died at badly run hospitals. Ask the learners who have no books, no classrooms, and badly educated teachers. Ask the grandmother dying of AIDS because the ANC engaged in AIDS denialism for decades. Ask the labourers on the side of the road, begging for work, because the so-called 'jobs' promised by the arms deal never materialised. The billions looted from state coffers to pay the thugs from overseas arms companies for arms we don't need has literally taken food out of people's mouths, medicine out of hospitals and children out of school. To apologise on behalf of the ANC for these atrocities to your fellow South Africans is shameful.

Issabella is not real. Shes a made up character of someone having you guys on. I mean, one day shes against gays because of some morality bullshit but she does not mind the poor staying poor because of the theft by the ANC. She still talkes of "white this and white that". Shes made up. Her idea of logic is rather bent to put it nicely.
Good advice: Dont bother engaging her in debate, she has no interest in debate and willingly does not bring anything to the table. Save yourself the hassle and leave him/her be. Truth is, very few South Africans of all colours feel the same as him/her. The person claiming to be isabella is just trying to sow division and racial tension. Just ignore the fool. He/She does not represent anyone. FACT.

Koos - I suspect you are right. 'Isabella' is probably some overpaid unelected 'comrade' in the ANCYL .... I'm off to do some gardening.

There is an article somewhere on this paper titled Mandela the Egnima it gives insight to the ignorence of some people when it comes to the ANC no wonder all comments there are progressive and not filled with armchair critics

Sin my best assumption about you is that you are an idiot.
As is Quo Brains. It was your ilk that made race the defining issue in SA for 300 yours and now you say sorry it was all a mistake let us just carry on as if nothing has happened. So you go on ad nauseum about alleged corruption ignoring the gross corruption which was nurtured by the DA in the Cape. Selling land for golf estates if I remember correctly. That was OK though we sold it to a white person.

Isabella my dear comrade a camel can get through the eye of a needle than the very bigots you waist your time on they are so trapped in their racist comfort zones that they have a phobia for any thing black or ANC nothing at all has been good for the past 16 yrs and they will never ever be until some supremacy elevates them again thats how their amnesia works

Isabella must hate herself very much. She declares her hatred for everyone and everything white yet she is white herself. Perhaps she is a Masochist afterall.

Curruption will never be uprooted when those who are in leadership are also corrupt. And now they want to take away the media as well. we are f*&^&d; and thanks to ANC.

I love the way there are people in the forum who condone corruption because the Nats were corrupt! NEWSFLASH, of course they were corrupt - the drove Apartheid, a sick, dehumanising, racist system! I don't this it forms the basis for a good argument.

The ANC, with this move, has shown that they don't give a hoot about corruption and has no intention of either doing anything about it, or prosecuting those who are guilty.

Corruption may not have cause poverty, but it is surely keeping the people poor.

I am a white person who has come to understand just how racist the society she was born into is. I lok to heroes like Harriet Colenso, Ruth First and Ray Alexander as my inspiration not some Margaret Thatcher wannabee like Helen Zille.

power corrupts, not color, and that is what the critics against the ANC are complaining about.

Isabella - The DA golf course corruption? The one pulled by the outgoing ANC MEC?

You did remember correctly, except you forgot to add that it was the ANC.

Isabella, you are a hero. I see that the apartheid sychophants outnumber us the logical and reasonable comrades. But everyday there is at least one of us who politely tells these apartheid apologists where to get off

What hurts them most is the truth that we are clearly unafraid to speak.

Thats pretty deep Quo :-) and there could be something in your observation.....thought provoking comment! thanks!

"What hurts them most is the truth that we are clearly unafraid to speak."
And thats the only truth. The rest are lies.

Bluntly Spoke - Isabella speaks the truth?

But she's clearly been lying. Like the ANC golf course corruption.

I am referring to the golf course corruption when the DA/NP alliance first ran the western Cape back in the 1990's. Maybe you are not old enough to rember Sin.

Well isabella, you are the old apartheid fossel then by your own definition. Dummy. Broaden your scope of people and you will realise that the majority of whites are fighting racism. We where fighting it even during the nat regime. You are a narrow minded puppet by your own design. There are lots of us whites who do not come from these "comfortable" places you describe. NAT much like the anc today was for a small minority, this excluded the "poor" be it white or black. Much like what the anc is like today.

Koos I am sure you are a struggle hero in your own mind.

I still see how its mostly whites who berate the ANC in these forums.

Isabella - 'DA/NP alliance first ran the western Cape back in the 1990's'

ANOTHER lie Isabella. 2009 is the first time the DA held the WCape since apartheid ended.

Sorry, but I have to ask, in exposing so much lies from you. Is ANYTHING you've ever posted, truth?

I see Bigman, Isabella, Bluntly, Moxster etc are very busy over at Luthuli House. Must feel good to almost do a whole day's work, even if it is just being trolls.

Sinudeity, give it up. It's like talking to your dog - blank stare and half tilted head. There's no logic in debating with people who are so narrow minded, totally ignoring facts.

Bluntly Spoke - Only a racist would care what the colour of the person is making the comment.

I'm glad it is over because we were not going to see any end to it any other way. From a branding point of viewm, the ANC brand is dying. What it is known to stand for now is not what it was built for. I wonder if the top people are aware of the brand losing its value because all the corrupt people are deducting from the brand than adding to it.

Sinudeity is not too bright. Heaven help the DA if these are the best of the party faithful!!

She writes: Isabella - The DA is trying to exclude black folks from the WCape?

LOL, Im guessing thats why folks from the ECape are moving here by the truckloads. Sinudeity @gmail.com on October 15, 2010, 2:26 pm

And the counters:Isabella - Im actually from Gauteng. I dont think you've made one accurate assumption about me yet isabella. Sinudeity @gmail.com on October 15, 2010, 2:35 pm

"""I still see how its mostly whites who berate the ANC in these forums.""" I still see how its mostly anc supporters who are concerned with race.
Isabella: Im afraid in reality you are not sure of anything.

@Themba: """"Sinudeity is not too bright. Heaven help the DA if these are the best of the party faithful!!""""

Heaven help the ANC with people like kitty and Malema in their ranks!!! LOL

Khumalo - So, what does where Im from have to do with ANYTHING?

Sinudeity@ I have tried before, in vain, to explain SOMETHING, ANYTHING, to you, that anyone with an IQ of less than 50 is guaranteed to understand. I possess not the patience of Job.

Sinudeity is a post apartheid cocktail wanting to be a banana, no content just flips. by the way who can counter the ANC when it comes to race relations or organisation with a mixed grouping we look beyond race we look at content unlike the diatribe we are forced upon here. surely there are those crying for when my parents were, or i was i dont know dumb, selfish, racist, rich,or blind. in Xhosa they believe kill a snake at infancy than you are safe down the road thats how we can ensure the future will be well taken care of not brats longing for a yesterday they dont know of.

Sin The Old NP and the new DA are the same organization. Stop using sophistry to avoid responsibility. The DP and Nats joined forces to face their real enemy the uppity blacks in the ANC.

Wow Themba, each day you sink lower to the levels of your mates Isabella and Kitty Kat. So sad for you mate, your racism and hatred have finally taken you down

Notice How Sin and Quo and the other racialists on this forum can only oppose never lead. All their posts are the same. There is corruption, there is injustice blah balh. They cannot place these issues in context. How is it that we have this injustice?
They cannot explain that and they can offer not one solution. Like the DA. They are just wailing Cassandras who are unable to influence events. Now they are predicting a DA take over in Gauteng. In many ways they are sad pathetic creatures who one feels sorry for. They have this impotent rage. This hatred for anything Black or other. Look at Obersfuherer Zille lashing out at the HRC. She is the one who ordered in her storm troopers to control shack dwellers in Hout Bay. You cannot allow the poor to upset the rich whites.

@CRUTZE: """"in Xhosa they believe kill a snake at infancy than you are safe down the road thats how we can ensure the future will be well taken care of not brats longing for a yesterday they dont know of.""""
A reasonable person would say, preserve the snake otherwise you will be overun by rodents. Hey Comrade? Please try and think for a change..

Loved the 'senile' dog quip. For those who go on and on ad infinitum about the corruption of the previous government, please add the proof. Also remember that that government created its own armaments factory and was selling arms internationally. Governments do tend to want to promote their own country's arms industry so I would imagine there is a fair amount of wheeling and dealing going on - in other words 'in order to sell' the product. The opposite of 'buying' the product which the ANC Gov was doing. However, I'm sure the shredders have done their job and removed whatever evidence there was, not already in the public domain. Should other governments push for closure then the case will continue. Whether the truth is out or not, the perception has been cemented in peoples minds, that corruption [including Zuma and buddies] was rife, and niether their reputations nor that of the country benefited in any way. There is no point going on about the billions stolen, because the theft is still going on.

Well the ANC compromised and preserved the snake ( NP) and now we are over run by rodents the DA. Obersfuherer Zille even looks like a rodent.

Wrong AGAIN Isabella, the old NP became the NNP which merged with the ANC, do please try and keep up child

Jeez isabella! Np became the DP? How old are you? Does your mother know you are on the internet and not studying for exams?

All I can say is Thank Goodness our Nuclear Aresenal was dismantled and not handed over to this bunch of ingrates. They probably would have lod them off to the Taliban or Al Queda - or worse yet, their good friend Gadaffi

Very true Isabella. All that these DA sychophants do is look for articles on M&G; and se how they make a link between any wrong doing with the ANC and black people in general. Sinu reads more about (read AGAINST) the ANC than her own Darkies Aside (DA) party

Oh please.
Most of the disgruntled Nat supporters joined the DA. Who are you trying to kid here. WHy do you think Phony Tony had teh "Fight Black " campaign in 1999

""""Darkies Aside (DA) party"""" Just keeping up the racism hey?
Issabella, tony never got far...why do you think that is? Because he had no white support. Please man. We know how silly you get, you can stop trying to show us.

ANC is corrupt, all the good people have left, now only the scumbags remain, leading the ANC sheeple around by the noses.

Then we have the apartheid relics, ignorant of the present and only has rose-coloured glasses on of the liberation party from 30 years ago. Totally disregarding the present.

Im sorry you guys have to pull out racist cards to try and defend corruption, or even acting all ignorant about it. Using race-cards and apartheid-cards to somehow justify your corruption.

Tony did not ge far becuase the NNP was still there as a repository for the hopes and aspirations of the white electorate. As soon as they were destroyed, the racist whites had to pledge allegiance to a new party. So along came the DA. End of story.

G.F.A., do you know the difference between commn sense and racism?

Whats even more crazy, is the ANC fanboys attacking me personally, and not the topic.

You even create false assumptions to play with your arguments.

All the intellectuals left the ANC when Mbeki got recalled it seems. Now were left with the Jacobs and the Malema's and the blunts and the isabella's.

The WORST thing to happen to South Africa, since apartheid, is the ANC.

Isabella - I dont believe you.

You lie too much.

Sin I have heard too many falsehoods and half truths from you to take you serioulsy I am afraid.
You live in a world of hate and resentment.
Too bad for you.
Post as much as you want.
We will have to wait for the people to speak at the next elections to see who is telling the truth.

Sin, the really funny part is these idiots actually believe they are winning the argument wheh in reality everyone is laughing at their stupidity

I have to agree with Isabella - I also can't stand white people. They are just plain nasty. Now we've got that out the way, let's maybe get some interesting contributions going to the subject of the arms deal? Or maybe I must just carry on listing the 101 ways I don't like white people - I am quite happy to do that also, and will give you a great essay (or even a poem "How do I hate white people? Let me count the ways" with apologies to Elizabeth Browning but it's up to our readers to decide which would offer them greater value? (chuckle) Your wish is my command...

Isabella, wake up girl. To be against corrupt thieves does not mean we are against black leaders or democracy or that we are racist. It just means we are against corrupt thieves. I was against the NP corrupt thieves just as much as I am against ANC corrupt thieves. It may be before your time, but I actually remember a few cases where NP ministers went to jail for corruption, and I cheered everytime it happened. It is just a pity that the ANC has brought corruption to a level where they are now even controlling prosecutors and investigators to make sure they get away with it.

We don't need to win arguments with you half wits just elections and so far we are doing a pretty good job at that.

@ Moxter, IvdW, Kitty Kat, etc...: I am 27 years old. I was 11 in 1994. As a white person, I do have an historical advantage, but given my age, you can't say that I supported the old regime (also, if you knew me you would know that I have been in several relationships with non-whites- and I voted ID, not DA, so I think I've proved my attitude). I would like to add to the above comments about ANC corruption, but before I can qualify in your eyes I guess I have to give up my advantage. Please tell me how to go about ridding myself of this pesky private education and my BSc from Rhodes so that I am good enough to critise the current goverment. Also, please advise if I should give up my job, donate my money and paint my skin black (perhaps a dark tan would do?). Or maybe I should just take it all overseas (I qualify for an UK ancestral VISA, so it won't be hard) and not complain. Maybe, instead of all of us complaining, we should all take our historical advantage overseas. Then, all you deserving historically disadavantaged people can enjoy yourselves in poverty?

Okay you apartheid ambassadors, it's over!!! The arms deal probe is suffocated. Maybe when your DA run for elections you can put it in the manifesto as a strike against the ANC. We will then see at the polls if that helps your anti-black course.

For now, just enjoy your weekends and the best weather this side of the universe. You lot complain too much sometimes. Take it easy okay

Fortunately BS, it doesn't quite work that way

Isabella - At least I still have my integrity and my morals intact. And my soul.

Plus, you have to know the next elections will be rough for the ANC, when gugulethu and khayalitsha crossed floors to the opposition.

So as the topic is the arms deal, how about a few pertinent questions to raise the level of debate: (1) Is the Gripen/ Hawk/Corvette/submarine package the right solution for SA from a strategic viewpoint? (2) Did SA pay a fair price? (3) Were the offsets successful? (4) Was there a reason that almost half the Gripens are trainers, unlike the other global Gripen deals? (5) Are the Ecuadoreans smiling with their new Cheetahs? I would be interested in answers to any of these having a few ideas to exchange.

The ANC wants to defend us against external aggression. Little did they realize that the real threat to democracy is the blogs on teh M and G.

Sometimes, (not often) I feel sorry for Isabella and her mates. They have to defend the indefensible and end up getting slaughtered on this forum.
They are relatively intelligent individuals who know that the majority of their ANC heroes are corrupt, yet still they defend them.
There is not enough money available in this country that would allow me to stoop to the levels they operate in.
Prostitution is a more honorable profession.

Isabella - This IS democracy?! Freely speaking on blogs! Dont you get that Isabella? Even spewing lies, its your democratic right!

The REAL threat to democracy is those that want to take our free speech away, our free media, and abuse our tax monies for personal enrichment.

I know it is folly to respond, but I have been asked (probably rhetorically) to not oppose corruption and injustice. So here it is: Corruption is a good thing. And to offer a solution. So here it is: Let corruption bankrupt the state. Let the poor all starve. Let us all do our very best to create a wasteland. There, that wasn't so difficult, now, was it? (Apologies to our readers, but as Philip Larkin once said, it's sometimes impossible to be both true and kind, or even not untrue and not unkind).

Defending the indefensible:

The arrogance is breathtaking.
None are so stupid that believe their own propaganda.

I disagree Mr Sinudeity that "ANC is corrupt, all the good people have left, now only the scumbags remain". There are many men and women of honour and integrity, especially in the middle ranks of the ANC. There always have been, and there still are. The more relevant question is which values (note that word - values) are uppermost in the ongoing battle for the soul of the ANC. There is a tremendous range of opinion and of values within the organisation - from the angelic to the venal, if I can use the metaphor. I leave it to others to expand on this question, and offer some viewpoints.

Vadis - Unfortunately, the loud people in the ANC, are the corrupt/incompetent ones. Those that reflect the image of the party.

If the ANC have good people in them, why are they not standing up against corruption? Not speaking out against it, is as good as collusion.

So who is the racist?: "I have to agree with Isabella - I also can't stand white people. They are just plain nasty. Now we've got that out the way, let's maybe get some interesting contributions going to the subject of the arms deal? Or maybe I must just carry on listing the 101 ways I don't like white people - I am quite happy to do that also, and will give you a great essay (or even a poem "How do I hate white people? Let me count the ways" with apologies to Elizabeth Browning but it's up to our readers to decide which would offer them greater value? (chuckle) Your wish is my command... Quo Vadis on October 15, 2010, 4:46 pm"

They have no choice Mr Sindeity. The principle of democratic centralism allows for debate within the inner circle. Once the decision is made, no dissenting views are tolerated. They are at risk of their careers, if nothing more. I repeat that there are many people of integrity who are simply not able to speak out due to this principle, this 'value'. Note that word, 'value'. There are far more people in the ruling party who are deeply uncomfortable about corruption than is reflected here. When Isabella talks of 'democracy' and notes that debate is a 'threat to democracy' you need to understand the precise meaning of the word. 'Democratic centralism' has many elements of the same concept of democracy practiced by the politburo. Same word, but very different meanings. Which explains why stifling of alternate views, whether within or outside the party, is seen as a goal of 'democracy'. It's kind of logical. It remains true that there are others inside the party with the more usual idea of the word 'democracy' - many fine thinkers, and many who see democracy more in the Jeffersonian sense. There is much hope for SA, both within and outside the party. But it will come down to the word 'values' at the end of the day.

hey wait, its 1984 !

anyone getting deep enough into these comments to get to my comment, is clearly missing something in their lives. ....*yawns and breaks wind*

@ Quo Vadis - thank you for the insight @ 5.30pm. Knew there was something wrong with the way 'democracy' is operated by this government. It is not the way I have always understood democracy. Well remembered now is the arguement 'Liberation before education' or should it have been education before liberation.

Education does not a decent person make.

Dr Josef Mengele was a highly educated person.

Going on and on about "liberation before education" is unhelpful when used to put down the majority of the electorate. Even in courts of law, anywhere in the world, a measure of remorse for sins commited, no matter how gross, is appreciated and taken into account.

Those that want genuine change and hope to increase their party's gains at the next elections should take a hard look at THEMSELVES first. They would be best advised to rather try to win that important voting bloc through pertinent and persuasive arguments rather than supercilious "I am better than you tones" that smack of patronisation, which the common man, (who happen to be in the majority), finds repulsive.

Where have we stifled debate. Please give even one example of where the ANC have stifled debate. We allow you your little debating society called the DA. You are allowed your little blogs where you can spew your vitrol to your little hearts content. It is you chaps who do not want any dissent. If anyone posts an opposing view they are insulted and shouted down. They are called liars, stooges, idiots and other terms. Some of you think that insulting is a debating technique. I suppose you are used to talking to your negores that way and think it convinces us.
As I have said before winning the Battle of the Blogs won't help much go into the rural areas and townships if you even know where they are and convince our people on the ground. I suppose when you get thrashed in the next elections you will invent intimidation stories or such like.

Zimbabwe was not economically destroyed in one day so will South Africa be as it is following the same route as politicians are now filling up their pockets with public money but people still vote them in power because they are former struggle heroes. Whatever they do cannot be disputed.But to my amazement the people from Zimbabwe are now in South Africa running away from the mess they created and are called refuges or economic migrants the same thing is going to happen in South Africa where we will run away from the mess we created.

I have been reading these posts with alarm. The racist ranting rhetoric of Isabella, Bluntly, etc is most disturbing. What they are effectively saying, if you push aside all the anti-white hatred, is that they defend criminality. It's clear that accepting bribes from arms dealer is a crime - how can anyone defend that? Unless you can prove that the allegations are false - which is nigh on impossible to do, given the decision re BAE and the accummulated evidence by the prosecutors - the only conclusion to reach is that there are some (thankfully not all) ANC supporters who are happy to defend criminals just as long as they are ANC criminals. It beggars belief that we have fought a long and hard fight to battle racism to hear some people still unable to think outside racist lines. Their clear racism against white people is shocking. Before anyone throws the race card at me, let me say (although I hate defining myself along racial lines) that I am a black person, who lived in exile for many years, married an English man (hence the non-black surname) and returned to the land of my birth, post apartheid, to join the new democracy. I have been disappointed by what I have seen. It is no comfort to me to know that the party I voted for is looking more and more like the party it deposed. I'm afraid that the likes of Madiba and Walter Sisulu are no more - this happens so often with liberation parties. The new guard are worse than pigs, feeding their bloated stomachs at the trough of food meant for the poor. Sies. Anyone who cares truly about the ANC and about the people of South Africa should be calling out loud and clear for an investigation into the arms deal - we must send those who stole to jail. Otherwise the rule of law is eroded, and it's not safe for anyone. If you are going to defend the criminals in the ANC, you cannot point a finger at the Nats - after all, politics is politics is politics, isn't it Isabella? The defenders of ANC criminality are the REAL racists - and I don't care what colour your skin is.

Ella Hume@ You forgot something. Look at the other side as well, or is it because you do not want to offend your English husband?

You wrote: "Their clear racism against white people is shocking." Well, unlike you, Isabella happens to be white, and you cannot honestly call her racist. She just happens to dislike racists, and most of them on these fora happen to be white, or have white-sounding names.

While there are some black racists, you do not ONCE mention white racists in your comment. Be fair and impartial, and then maybe people will take you seriously.

I don't see any white racists here. I have not read ONE comment which has been negative to black people - if you can quote me, please do. On the other hand, there are lots and lots of comments that explicitly condemn white people. This is unacceptable. A political debate should not come down to this level of personal mud-slinging. Is this what we have resorted to becoming? No Themba, it is not nice. The anger at the ANC is an anger directed at those who have stolen from our brothers and sisters. Even if you disagree, you can't just say people are racist because they are angry with the ANC.

"We don't need to win arguments with you half wits just elections and so far we are doing a pretty good job at that".

wow.
You are an absolute hoot, IVW.
For someone who champions a return to traditional values, your wholesale support for the squashing of the arms-deal probe is simply incredible. You are sanctioning corruption and grand theft on an epic scale.
The rest of your comments are pure hysterical defelection- best form of defense is attack, right? You defend the indefensible.

I'm sorry, but you have absolutely ZERO credibility.

Ella Hume@ While I do not use very strong language on this forum, I understand where the anger and frustration comes from. If you are indeed black, and you live in the real South Africa, you ought to know why some "brothers and sisters" are angry.

I guess you could say that they are tired of turning the other cheek, bending over backwards to forgive, trying hard but not succeeding when they are told to "move on and forget about the past" when the past still lives with them in the present, and a whole host of other slights that only those "who feels it knows it."

Well the use of words like pigs, Nazis, sheep fools to describe the freely elected representatives of the people of SA sounds pretty inflammatory to me. As are threats to burn down Luthuli House. The veritatble hate speech directed against the ANC is quite unbelievable. They are freely compared to the Nazis by many posters. Now that is just down right insulting and completely out of line. The arms deal happened when the ANC had barely been in power a few years. Mistakes were made but the ANC has learnt from them.
People who say the voters of this country are sheep or uneducated or fools are guilty of racism because they are saying that the people who voted for the ANC and may I remind you that is 66% of the population are fools. They do not respect these voters. The most obvious reason is because they are black and they do not agree with what the so superior betters in the DA want them to think.
That is why we respond with the allegation of racism. That is what it is. These democrats are all for democracy when it agrees with what they think.
As I have said the ANC is the government by overwhelming mandate you lot have to deal with that and engage. No you resort to the tactics of name calling and undermining.

Themba Khumal, You said : "If you are indeed black, and you live in the real South Africa, you ought to know why some "brothers and sisters" are angry.I guess you could say that they are tired of turning the other cheek, bending over backwards to forgive""

Themba, making ammends and conforming to fit others are at the order of the day.

Even if you're not black, bending over blackwards is the accepted posture.....

Isabella you have been smoking some good stuff. You rant on about those horrible whites, and justify things the ANC do based on Apartheid - just like Mopster. Point is, what was the rationale behind stopping the investigation? You need to start asking yourself what you and others define as racism, as from what I see it is anything a white, and only white person, does. Shame, you need to grow a little. The previous govt. screwed up, but you know what things actually worked. I have asked many previously disadvantages blacks about hospitals and police effectiveness in the past, and they say it was better then than now, even with the problems of racial exclusion. That tells me the ANC did not handle the transition well. Our big challenge is education, yet that is being screwed over by poorly educated people in positions they do not deserve.

I am not surprised that the Arms deal investigation has been shut down but am hopeful that one day the truth will emerge. For the time been we will just have to picture a victorious Zuma raising his glass and complimenting his henchman Dramat of a job well done.

8 Hawks arrested a journalist.

After that day I had no faith in the Hawks.
This news about the arms deal comes as no surprise to me.

There is no justice in this country.

I'm currently reading Andrew Feinstein's After the Party and this article is quite timely. I just think it's sad that this is how things have ended up - our new democracy started out with such hope and optimism for a South Africa for all and it has been undermined by the same people who had the greatest hopes and will to make a difference back in 1994.

Corruption happens in every government around the world. Some countries are better than other at holding those corrupt politicians to account. I suppose it's naive to have thought that South Africa would be different and could resist the same temptations politicians everywhere seem to give in to at some point or other.

The intoxication of power and ego are corrupting forces that weak willed humans don't seem to be able to resist.

@Isabella Van der Westhuizem:

You seem to misunderstand the circumstances of the arms deal. Firstly we did not need the technology - as suggested above who did we have to defend ourselves from?
Secondly instead of selecting the aircraft which were suggested by our military we chose more expensive aircraft which were in fact worse.
This decision was entirely based on the amount of money being paid as bribes.

How can we just sweep this under the carpet and pretend it didn't happen?

We the people allow corruption to fester because there is no drivers testing station I know of in South Africa where you can pass if you did not pay bribery whether you able to drive or not.The RDP houses you will wait for eternity to get one if you did not pay a bribe you will always be told the people who got houses were before you which is not true.

What I do not understand is why is this allowed/permitted. Everyone with half a brain knows what a crook Zuma is. Are they going to give him carte blanche to go the Idi Amin route?

To all my fans.
I think we have to accept that there would be no benefit to pursuing this highly politicized investigation. The ANC has realized that mistakes were made and we need to move on. Those who persist are not considering the best interests of the country.
You remain selective in what you get upset about. You try to restrict debate by making it ahistorical. So you do not want to discuss apartheid you do not want to discuss evidence of corruption in other places. That is creating a false debate. If we pretend that we are here now and how we got here is irrelevant your case sounds more convincing. However when you put it in perspective it is exposed as afar more selfish agenda.
Now arms deals are notorious for corruption. Tony Blair himself squashed the investoigation about BA's deal with Saudi. SO when the newly elected ANC came to power in 1994 they were inexperienced in governing.

How could they be other? The arms sellers were highly experienced at this .sort of thing so it was

Berlosuni and Clinton and GWB have all had shady deals in their pasts. None of those countries that you all admire so much sort it fit to overthrow a democractially elected government and create a crisis.a case of lambs to the slaughter. As to whether we needed the weapons well once again we had an inexperienced party running a brand new country. Remember there were new provinces new parliamentarians. A few months before they had been hiding from assassination squads now they were in power. But you want to hold a developing country to higher standards than that
So that is the context of the deal. I am sure today things would be different.
There are those of you who position the DA as an alternative government. That is not going to happen. I am glad the DA has a chance to administer an area. It is probably good for democracy not to have too much power in one place. However the DA does not enjoy the support of the masses. Those who think it will win Gauteng are dreaming. So it means that like it or not for you chaps the ANC is set to govern for a very long time. That is why I say the point of engagement is within the party and the alliance. You say Mbeki was guilty of ignoring HIV. He was. Who deposed him? The ANC and it's supporters. He was the one who ruined the arms deal investigation by politicizing it. He was deposed at Polokwane. So democracy works in SA. It works within the ANC. That is an major achievement in this continent.
As to the those who accuse me of racism and dragging up the past I think we need to understand what racism is. Racism is not just I don't want my daughter to marry some-one of color. That is merely personal racism. We are worried about institutional racism. Racism is a product of the industrial revolution. This could not have taken place without the slaves to pick sugar and cotton. So this system was institutionalized. A whole group of people were systematically uneducated and pressed into servitude. America and the west were built on this. When I say this I am howled down. People say I am an idiot I don't know that agent orange is a defoliant not a chemical weapon. When I bring up the fact that no-one worries about dead Palestinians only dead Israelis I am laughed at. That is symptomatic of what is wrong with all your posts.

You are like holocaust denialists. Maybe things were more efficient under apartheid, hey under the Third Reich the German economy flourished. We have to understand how we got to a point in history. Denying it leads to the wrong conclusions.

So vote for the DA build them up but realize that you are going to have to engage with the people of SA. Those people have not forgotten their history it is still real for them. They continue to support the ANC.They are not going to change because of threats from a few ill mannered and simplistic bloggers. These are the poor who endured the pass laws the loss of their lands etc. They were unbowed then and they are unbowed now.

Isabella - LOL, so effectively you are saying "yes, they are corrupt, but go after the other people before the ANC"?
Thats like saying "yes, I was going 200km/h, but so was the car in front of me. Arerst him first". You are no less innocent.
You dont let the mistakes of apartheid be forgotten (rightly so), but then you say we must sweep the ANC's under the carpet. Why? Because people have done it before them does not make it ok.
In effect you have no valid reason for the charges being dropped - merely stating that they are not the first to practise corruption

Dear G Unt
You have chosen not to listen as I am pretty sure many others here will chose to do. So you go into your own little personal exile. You withdraw and make yourself even more irrelevant to the future of SA. The ANC is going to keep ruling. The DA is in no position to govern. So explain to me how carrying on with this investiagtion is goingto help. You lot are not interested in SA just in underminig the government. Look at the USA they did more to harm themsleves and their institutions by hounding Bill Clinton than anything else. The arms deal investigation was used as a political process by Mr Mbeki. He gave it the kiss of death at birth. It has no credibilty left because of that. You lot come all over wide eyed and innocent. We shoudl function in a perfect world. Well politics is messy. It is called Real politik. However at the risk of some-one calling me a racist I would suggest that you are not wide eyed and innocent but rather cynical and manipulative. Trying with all your might to create an untenable situation and then run off to the world press saying "It is a banana republic" Run by Blacks.
The colonialist powers have done taht throughout Africa. Come they say before we go let us cut off both your legs and then ask you to run a marathon.

Isabella, please show me where i called SA "a banana republic run by blacks". You cannot, as I didn't.
I was referring to the article. There are no valid reasons for dropping the charges - calling politics "messy" is not a reason.
Where did I mention the DA? I dont mind if the ANC keeps ruling and the DA doesn't - as long as the law applies to them as it does to us. I am not interested in undermining government - just interested in seeing corrupt individuals brought to book.

"Explain how this investigation is going to help?" Seriously?! Thats like a white person asking - "why dwell on the past negatives of apartheid, lets forget everything and move forward".

Please dont come with your victim mentality there at the end - its not a reason to drop corruption investigations.

Well done on not adressing a single point of my previous post.

Isabella -
My father, like many other South Africans, volunteered six years of his life to go, in the South African Army, to fight against fascism. South Africa once had a proud history of standing up for universal values. The ANC once also did. You are bigoted and doctrinaire, and you are using cheap tactics of false association in your vicious arguments.

I for one yearn to see a new South Africa without the likes of you and your denialist cronies who can't even reflect truthfully on history. Your comments about the poverty of the Eastern Cape (Mpuma Koloni as your party calls it) two hundred years ago are laughable. There were no riches in the standard sense there for colonists to strip. The Cape around Cape Town had riches in the usual sense, due to three centuries of settlement. I know all about the frontier wars that happened in the mid nineteenth century, and so do you. So don't fabricate nonsense about impoverishment taking place two centuries ago. The greatest impoverishment was the consequence, in the 1850s, of the Cattle Killing which boiled down to mass hysteria and superstition.

On 25 November 2009, Professor de Vos wrote:
It is very difficult to sustain the fiction that [national director of the NPA, Menzi] Simelane is even remotely a person who could be called “fit and proper”. He is not honest. He is not reliable. He is not truthful. What counts in Simelane’s favour is that his view of the NPA – not shared by Ginwala, senior counsel or by any person who has read the Act and the Constitution – is that the NPA is not independent, that the NPA should take instructions from the Minister of Justice and the President – even in making decisions on individual cases – and hence that the NPA is a tool in the hands of the government to do with it as it pleases.
No wonder President Zuma purported to appoint him. With Simelane at the helm, no one will ever again be prosecuted if the President and the Minister does not give the go-ahead. If this appointment is allowed to stand, it will bring an end to even the pretense that the constitutional guarantee that the NDPP must act without fear, favour or prejudice, will be adhered to.
This is the darkest and most scandalous day yet in the short life of President Zuma’s tenure. The appointment shows an utter disregard for the Constitution and the law. It is nothing more than the actions of a gangster hell bent on protecting himself and his cronies. I feel ashamed that I have given our President the benefit of the doubt for all these months."

The squashing of the Arms Deal must be seen in that light.

[de Vos was afterwars "got at" but that does not detract from the facts]

The twisted rhetoric and non-logic as the drones rush to justify this travesty is quite unbelievable.
Isabella will justify ANYTHING by the victim argument. Her above ramble is nothing but a tacit admission of guilt (and the rest is excuses).
This is nothing buy a mealy mouthed attempt to condone grand theft! The fact that the ANC was "inexperienced" does not explain the complete lapse of moral values in openly soliciting bribes.
The problem is that this NOT water under the bridge. Many of the accused are still sucking at the teat of the nation, including our esteemed leader.

Even my 3 year old knows its wrong to steal, Isabella.

On 25 November 2009, Professor de Vos wrote:
It is very difficult to sustain the fiction that [national director of the NPA, Menzi] Simelane is even remotely a person who could be called “fit and proper”. He is not honest. He is not reliable. He is not truthful. What counts in Simelane’s favour is that his view of the NPA – not shared by Ginwala, senior counsel or by any person who has read the Act and the Constitution – is that the NPA is not independent, that the NPA should take instructions from the Minister of Justice and the President – even in making decisions on individual cases – and hence that the NPA is a tool in the hands of the government to do with it as it pleases.
No wonder President Zuma purported to appoint him. With Simelane at the helm, no one will ever again be prosecuted if the President and the Minister does not give the go-ahead. If this appointment is allowed to stand, it will bring an end to even the pretense that the constitutional guarantee that the NDPP must act without fear, favour or prejudice, will be adhered to.
This is the darkest and most scandalous day yet in the short life of President Zuma’s tenure. The appointment shows an utter disregard for the Constitution and the law. It is nothing more than the actions of a gangster hell bent on protecting himself and his cronies. I feel ashamed that I have given our President the benefit of the doubt for all these months."

The squashing of the Arms Deal must be seen in that light.

[de Vos was afterwards "got at" but that does not detract from the facts]

Now Shaman sans Brains is an expert on the frontier wars. I wonder what history book you read. Years of expansion and cynical manipulation by the Boers and Bristish pushed the Xhosa into an increasingly untenable situation.
In those days land and grazing were the resources. Later it was labor. The 1856 Cattle Killings were the act of a desperate people. I seem to remember that Harry SMith murdered King Hintsa. It is no wonder that the eastern Cape is poor and that it is the home of so many true struggle heroes like Mbeki, Mandela and Biko.
If my arguments are vicious then I don't know what you would call the veritable hate speech that passes here every day. Comparing the ANC to NAZIS, Pigs criminals.

@Isabella Van der Westhuizem:
So our moral compass must be with respect to the amount of dodgey deals of the past and what might be happening in the rest of the world. Apparently you're a historian yet, you don't seem to understand what happened in the arms deal. People took bribes in a completely premeditated fashion preferring one set of inferior aircraft to another based on the bribes being paid to them.

You have a completely them and us attitude when it comes to this. Any suggestion that corrupt people should be investigated is met by suggesting that people are being subversive and against the national interest. Yet at the same time politics are more nuanced to you they are messy.

I cannot fathom how wanting corruption to be minimised so as to ensure that can get more services, better transport and infrastructure is subversive. When it comes down to it that is exactly what everyone on this forum wants. This is because we all want South Africa to be great and the best way to do this is reduce corrupt and run the country as efficiently as possible that do more with what we have.

Thanks for your definition of Racism Isabella. It has confirmed to me that the BBBEE act is a racist act, designed by a racist institution, and supported by white hating people such as yourself. Please read it before you jump the gun and put your feet in your mouth again.

A clear victory for the ANC, the end of the probe. More clear might be that the ANC, the eternal Party, is seeking the most holistic of paths to dominance. Control of law enforcement and the Judiciary, then the press, obviates the need for an internal militia and an expensive propaganda department (it is clear from much of the commentary that propaganda will not need to be as big a government priority as, say, in China). The ANC must have learned a thing or two from Mad Bob's mistakes.

Dear Isabella, please look up the definition of an ad hominem attack, and try study proper forms of argumentation, rather than spewing forth misguided and often racist rhetoric. For example, just because someone is white and condemns the corruption of black elites (skin colour here is a contingent feature in the condemnation), this does not make them racist. Furthermore, even if they were racist, this does not necessarily undermine their argument. Why even bring the race card into this?

I am so bored reading about race that I have to ask a few more questions about the Arms Deal (sorry to keep to the topic): (1) What is the real operating range of the Gripen without tankers ?(SA has no tankers now we retired our ancient 707s)? (2) If Gripen is still 'up to date', why did SAAB create the Gripen NG? Just asking - for anyone who can give it a bit of thought (Isabella please just give us a few more 'things that I hate about white people', to each his or her core competency)...

229 comments, Sipiwo Pahlane, The Moxster, Isabella Van der Westhuizem (who can't even spell her own name, btw), Bigman Peter Crutse, Mxoli Cedric, 5 people, support this blatant thuggery. Not even Dave Harris can defend this one. Just goes to show guys, these paid agents are the last ace that the ANC has up their sleeve. "U can fool some of the people..." I'll let u finish that one Isabella!!