Thursday, 16 September 2010

Quote of the day...

...comes from Joseph Ratzinger;
As we reflect on the sobering lessons of the atheist extremism of the Twentieth Century, let us never forget how the exclusion of God, religion and virtue from public life leads ultimately to a truncated vision of man and of society and thus to a reductive vision of the person and his destiny.

Today, the United Kingdom strives to be a modern and multicultural society. In this challenging enterprise, may it always maintain its respect for those traditional values and cultural expressions that more aggressive forms of secularism no longer value or even tolerate. 
The "atheist extremism," of course, is the Nazis. And as a Vatican spokesperson confirmed, as a former member of the Hitler Youth, the Pope knew "rather well what the Nazi ideology is about." Which is why we can only conclude that "Benedict XVI" is being purposefully dishonest.

After all, he must surely have been privy to Hitler's speech at the Reichstag on 30th January 1939;
Amongst the accusations which are directed against Germany in the so called democracies is the charge that the National Socialist State is hostile to religion. In answer to that charge I should like to make before the German people the following solemn declaration:

1. No one in Germany has in the past been persecuted because of his religious views (Einstellung), nor will anyone in the future be so persecuted....

The Churches are the greatest landed proprietors after the State... Further, the Church in the National Socialist State is in many ways favoured in regard to taxation, and for gifts, legacies, &c., it enjoys immunity from taxation.

It is therefore, to put mildly-- effrontery when especially foreign politicians make bold to speak of hostility to religion in the Third Reich....

I would allow myself only one question: what contributions during the same period have France, England, or the United States made through the State from the public funds?

3. The National Socialist State has not closed a church, nor has it prevented the holding of a religious service, nor has it ever exercised any influence upon the form of a religious service. It has not exercised any pressure upon the doctrine nor on the profession of faith of any of the Confessions. In the National Socialist State anyone is free to seek his blessedness after his own fashion....

There are ten thousands and ten thousands of priests of all the Christian Confessions who perform their ecclesiastical duties just as well as or probably better than the political agitators without ever coming into conflict with the laws of the State....

This State has only once intervened in the internal regulation of the Churches, that is when I myself in 1933 endeavoured to unite the weak and divided Protestant Churches of the different States into one great and powerful Evangelical Church of the Reich. That attempt failed through the opposition of the bishops of some States; it was therefore abandoned. For it is in the last resort not our task to defend or even to strengthen the Evangelical Church through violence against its own representatives....

But on one point it is well that there should be no uncertainty: the German priest as servant of God we shall protect, the priest as political enemy of the German State we shall destroy.
This quote comes from the site nobeliefs.com, which offers an extensive argument in favour of Hitler being a Christian. Albeit, of course, an extremely mental and evil one hardly representative of the faith. And the ability to make that distinction, incidentally, puts both myself and that site on the moral high ground over Ratzinger.

As a spokesperson for the British Humanist Association pointed out;
The notion that it was the atheism of Nazis that led to their extremist and hateful views or that somehow fuels intolerance in Britain today is a terrible libel against those who do not believe in God.

The notion that it is non-religious people in the UK today who want to force their views on others, coming from a man whose organisation exerts itself internationally to impose its narrow and exclusive form of morality and undermine the human rights of women, children, gay people and many others is surreal.
It is, perhaps, an understatement to point out that The Pope Is A Dope.

6 comments:

Vladimir said...

I assume he is also talking about Lenin, Stalin and Mao, and merely using Hitler as the most obvious example. The Communists are better examples for his argument, because Hitler pretended to be religious whenever it suited him, while they hated religion and tried to stamp it out.

I'm sure you wouldn't claim that Hitler was a socialist, as part of a lazy attempt to demonise socialists. And yet, demonising Christians by associating them with Hitler seems to be a similar tactic, particularly in terms of the quality of evidence used.

Phil Dickens said...

I'm not trying to demonise Christians at all. As I said, if Hitler was a Christian he was "n extremely mental and evil one hardly representative of the faith."

My point was arguing against the Pope's demonisation of atheists.

And Lenin, Stalin, and Mao did what they did because they were authoritarian despots. Their atheism was incidental, though (as an atheist) I agree that stamping out religion is wrong in any context.

Vladimir said...

But you said "we can only conclude that "Benedict XVI" is being purposefully dishonest". This is the point I disagree with.

You seem to be saying:
1. Benedict XVI blamed "atheist extremism" for "the exclusion of...virtue from public life...[and] a truncated vision of man and society".
2. Benedict XVI was speaking exclusively about the Nazis.
3. Benedict XVI "knew rather well what the Nazi ideology is about".
4. Benedict XVI was aware that the Nazis were Christians, having personally listened to Hitler going on about the importance of the Church.
Therefore, the Pope is "purposefully dishonest", because he blamed atheists for the crimes of a group of Christians. QED.

That's my understanding anyway, but it doesn't follow. On point 2, the Pope might also have been talking about Stalinists or Maoists. In that case, points 3 and 4 wouldn't be relevant at all.

And even if points 2 and 3 do hold, then point 4 is still logically weak, because the Pope may know more about the Nazis than nobeliefs.com, and may be well aware that their "Christianity" was only a facade.

That's what I'm getting at, anyway. I am annoyed that certain prominent atheists have been publicly attacking the Pope for many years, but when he fights back, they cry "foul" and try this reverse Godwin tactic on him. That said, my beef is not with you personally, and I have enjoyed reading your recent articles and replies over at B&D.

Phil Dickens said...

The Pope may well have been talking more broadly, but given his earlier mention of the Nazis, they were the implied analogy.

Thus, 2 may not necessarily be true, but my post was specifically about the atheists=Nazis argument.

3 is a direct quote from the Vatican, "clarifying" the matter. And, if they're telling the truth, then the Pope should have known that Hitler didn't profess atheism, but rather often used Christianity as an ideological justification for his anti-Jew position.

Thus, the pope is being personally dishonest not for blaming atheism for what "a bunch of Christians" did (Nazism could be argued to be a faith in itself, and certainly didn't fit in with Jesus' teachings) but in presenting Hitler as an atheist, especially an atheist extremist.

I have many criticisms of "militant Atheism" myself, not least in its entirely religion-based perspective on world affairs, but they are largely by-the-by in relation to this event.

ed worker said...

I find it bizarre for the Pope to use the Nazis to try and portray atheists as immoral and the Catholic church as a source of morality. Some of the worst atrocities in WW2 were committed by the Croatian Ustaše, who didn't just have the moral support from Catholics but Catholic clergy actually took an active part in running the Ustaše system, e.g. cardinal Stepinac was in charge of forced conversions to Catholicism, Franscicans were involved in massacres of Serbs, Jews and Roma, and the running of the death camp of Jasenovac.

"Priests, invariably Franciscans, took a leading part in the massacres. Many, went around routinely armed and performed their murderous acts with zeal. A Father Bozidar Bralow, known for the machine gun that was his constant companion, was accused of performing a dance around the bodies of 180 massacred Serbs at Alipasin-Most. Individual Franciscans killed, set fire to homes, sacked villages, and laid waste the Bosnian countryside at the head of Ustashe bands. In September of 1941, an Italian reporter wrote of a Franciscan he had witnessed south of Banja Luka urging on a band of Ustashe with his crucifix." (John Cornwell - Hitler's Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII)

The brutality of the Catholic fascists in Croatia even put off the Nazis (who were worried the Ustase were killing too many Serbs and not enough Jews).

And this wasn't just an aberration of the Croatian clergy: after the end of WW2, the Catholic church helped many war criminals to escape to Latin America. So much for the morality of the Catholic church!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jasenovac
http://libcom.org/library/role-catholic-church-yugoslavias-holocaust-se-n-mac-math-na-1941-1945
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aloysius_Stepinac

ed worker said...

There's actually a Wikipedia article on the Catholic church and the Ustase, with interesting depictions of moral behaviour of Catholic clergy. Ante Pavelić, the Ustase dictator, wasn't just smuggled to Argentina with the help of the Catholic Church - the Pope himself (Pius XII) protected this mass murderer by giving him refuge in the Vatican when the Russian, Yugoslav, Italian, and American agents were after him.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_clergy_involvement_with_the_Usta%C5%A1e

btw. let's not forget the very 'moral' role that the current Pope personally played (as head of the Inquisition aka Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith) in smashing the Liberation Theology, because the Vatican favoured the various fascist dictatorships massacring the working class in Latin America at the time.