The floods in Pakistan are too enormous to comprehend. The equivalent of 85% of the Australian population has been made homeless in just a couple of weeks. The death toll is not yet known. The nation has been turned upside down.

Flood survivors migrating to safer areas. Photo: AP

These events made it hard even to take seriously the news reports this week on the ‘floods’ in the Sydney suburbs of Paddington and Carlingford, in which residents lost sports cars and Sex Pistols memorabilia.

There are tragedies, and there are tragedies.

But any kind of tragedy arouses feelings of unfairness, exasperation and human inadequacy: Why me? Who made this happen? Couldn’t someone have stopped it? Isn’t someone in control? Of all tragedy, natural disasters seem the least comprehensible of all.

When such things happen, atheists have a simple response: we are simply witnessing indifferent, impersonal nature at work. The disaster is, as the term suggests, natural; it’s cause and effect, chance and necessity. End of explanation.

But for most human beings, this is an inadequate way of understanding natural disaster. It explains very little. Our sense of sadness, injustice and fury requires something more satisfying than ‘(sh)it happens’. We long for explanation, or a context within which we can place these events, or some hope that it is not mere accident. We look for intention and purpose.

Overflowing rivers of ink are spilled on attempts to ‘justify the ways of God to man’, as Milton described our efforts to explain what goes on in the world by those who believe in a loving and powerful God. Pretty much all of these ‘theodicies’ fail in some significant ways, but they also sometimes succeed in helping us understand aspects of this most perplexing of issues. So here goes.

There are perhaps three ‘non-natural’ ways of looking at disaster such as the Pakistan floods: 1. God did it. 2. Someone evil did it. 3. We don’t know whom to blame, but we know it’s bad.

Explanation 1 finds support in many religions, with God bringing judgement on a wicked world by some form of natural terror. It is an explanation with some satisfaction, except that it condemns the people who are suffering, because it suggests they must have displeased God. Or it suggests that God killed ‘them’ to teach ‘us’ a lesson and call us into line, which brings into question God’s attitude to ‘them’.

Sometimes Christian leaders ‘borrow’ the Great Flood story from Genesis to suggest that one natural disaster or another is a sign of God’s condemnation of a nation or people. I haven’t yet heard anyone making such claims about Pakistan, thank goodness, because it is a wrong-headed way of thinking and a terrible misuse of Scripture. The true parallel with this ancient account of God’s judgement is the account of God’s final judgement, recorded at the other end of the Bible in Revelation, not any particular flood in any part of the world at any particular time in history.

Explanation 2 looks to another agent, whether human wickedness (e.g. the Pakistan floods were caused by human-generated climate change) or an evil spiritual reality (e.g. Satan caused it). This, too, offers some degree of satisfaction, because it locates the agent of suffering, but it also runs the risk of making God look a bit diminished. If God is powerful and good, why couldn’t he intervene and overrule human or devilish wickedness?

Explanation 3 appeals most to me. It involves an anguished cry of the heart; a profound expression of the wrongness of human tragedy. It doesn’t identify the cause, but it does acknowledge the effects of disaster. It says that this state of affairs, where young children drown and grandmothers starve to death in front of their families is deeply, painfully wrong and should not be so. “This shouldn’t happen,” is as far as the explanation reaches.

One recent theological effort to talk about suffering has struck a chord with me. David Bentley Hart, an Eastern Orthodox theologian, wrote a short book following the 2004 Asian tsunami in which he outlined a response to it from a Christian standpoint. In summary, he viewed the whole thing as a terrible waste. A waste of life, a waste of potential, a waste of goodness. He thinks God would see it that way, too. A wicked waste.

This seems to me the best way to think about natural disasters. They are a sign that the world is cursed with waste. Wasted opportunities; wasted potential; wasted lives. Although we can only speculate about the physical, moral or spiritual causes of the Pakistani floods, can we not say with certainty that they are a terrible waste, a wrong and horrendous state of affairs, and something we deeply regret, long to come to an end, and wish to put right whatever the cost?

Unless you believe only in nature, in which case you can only say “it just happened”.



Dr Greg Clarke is a Director of the Centre for Public Christianity

51 comments

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    • monkeytypist says:

      06:52am | 01/09/10

      Right so theists get to indulge in a higher, more sophisticated level of moral anguish than a non-theist?  You’re really reaching here, Greg.

      How exactly is your position of “God exists and is ultimately responsible for everything, but it’s a terrible error to find him responsible for this, in fact we can’t say what is responsible” more enlightened than (or indeed any different to) “bad things just happen”?

      Here’s an idea: weather patterns caused it.  Inadequate flood defences caused it (you never hear about tragic catastrophes in the Netherlands).  Millions of good, faithful, believers were swept away indifferently along with sinners.  If you can’t see for yourself how this is a powerful counterargument to the narrative of a divine providence that provides an essential purpose for human beings, then I can’t really help you.

      Go on, though.  So God created hundreds of thousands of people with the intention of having them ultimately die or suffer as a result of this flood.  He can’t not have done that, because he’s omniscient and all-powerful (he knew the flood would happen, and he didn’t stop it).  How exactly does he love us again? Is it in a way that’s so ineffable and amazing it’s impossible for us small-minded atheists to ever understand?  Bet it is.

    • gug says:

      09:39am | 01/09/10

      Agreed. I’ve been thinking about that last point you made. The one that’s always thrown in the faces of atheists. That the mind of God is too powerful to be comprehended by humans.

      It seems to me that generally, the religious are happy to say that, yes, horrible things happen, and despite this, God is all powerful, meaning he must hold ultimate responsibility. Obviously the glaring discrepancy there is, why would God allow this if he cares for us, and has the power to prevent it. The point of this entire article; the point of most arguments about religion I guess. Plug the gap with “the mind of God is unknowable”. I don’t see how that solves the contradiction though.

      If I am unable to understand the mind of God, then that is because God designed me so. He also designed a reality in which I may experience horrible, unimaginable pain seemingly at the whim of chance (god). Therefore, God has deliberately designed a creature which is to be inserted into a chaotic messy reality which will invariably cause it incredible suffering (either physical or mental). This creature cannot, by design, understand its maker’s intention or willingness to see it suffering (sometimes unimaginably). Deliberately designing a creature incapable of understanding why it is being subjected to such things seems pretty horrible to me. If that’s because I don’t understand the mind of God, then that’s its fault for designing me so, and it must take responsibility for my inadequacies in that area.
      The Mind of God is unknowable because God wants it that way, he doesn’t want his creations to understand the reasons for the horrors they face, even though he has the power to do so. Therefore he is responsible for the pain and suffering felt by every individual.

    • phil says:

      09:48am | 01/09/10

      That always amuses me, Atheists always get hung up on the “god created all these people but lets them suffer and die as a result of XYZ (man, machine, natural disaster etc)”

      Why do you all seem to think that if he is there that he “has to stop it” from happening? God’s given us free will and choice to do as we please, him interfering with things would then remove the choice and freedom we have and then we would have no result or consequence for our own actions.

      What do you see as worse?

      a) a flood that kills millions of people who were living in 3rd world conditions suffering from all manner of problems and poverty which was not likely to ever change in their lifetime but was a man made problem in the first place

      Or

      b) that those same people would still have been living in those horrible conditions (man made) if it were not for those floods?

      These people are in this situation which they have been born in to and through free will or choice they still keep having more kids and so do their kids without the thought of the quality of life their children will have, more than likely very much like their own, then a flood comes along kills a stack of them and you want to blame god? why not blame man? Man is responsible for their own actions but very rarely takes responsibility of what they do.

    • Steely Dan says:

      10:21am | 01/09/10

      @ Phil

      “God’s given us free will and choice to do as we please, him interfering with things would then remove the choice and freedom we have and then we would have no result or consequence for our own actions.”
      How does choosing not to have an earthquake affect my free will?

      And to answer your question, a) is worse.  Poverty and natural disaster is worse than just poverty.

    • Just Sayin' says:

      01:05pm | 01/09/10

      @ Phil

      “God’s given us free will and choice to do as we please”

      Strange that all those people chose to die terrifying deaths in Pakistani floodwaters.  Seems the mind of man is even stranger than that of god.  Or are you just having a bob each way?

    • phil says:

      02:58pm | 01/09/10

      @Steely Dan, Just Sayin

      By free will and choice i was referring to things in your control like where you go and when, your decisions.
      If you choose to be somewhere when a flood (or any other natural disaster) comes sweeping through then that’s unlucky but that’s how the cookie crumbles, all got to die one day.
      Natural disasters are indiscriminate and arent only going to kill those who dont believe and let live those who do believe.

      Trying to blame god for doing this to them is hardly a valid argument, stop thinking that he is up there just thinking of ways to piss you off or ruin peoples day.

      It wouldn’t have been so bad if the place was better developed and not so stupidly overpopulated, both mans doing - look at the real problems!

      Id argue that b) is worse than a), a) has an ending sure its not a pleasant one but better than living in such poor conditions which are prevalent over there. Its also not like those conditions put them off having more kids and putting them in the same position of poverty making the situation worse for everyone.

      It was a dam that burst after monsoonal rains which shouldnt be a surprise to anyone who lives there, It was man who made the dam and didnt do a good enough job given what he had to work with it wasnt god who made the dam.

      Even if you could “blame god” for all this what good would it do you? does it change everything thats happened?

    • Steely Dan says:

      03:23pm | 01/09/10

      @ phil

      “By free will and choice i was referring to things in your control like where you go and when, your decisions. If you choose to be somewhere when a flood…”
      I don’t imagine too many people move to disaster-prone areas.  Most of these people live there because they can’t move.

      “Trying to blame god for doing this to them is hardly a valid argument, stop thinking that he is up there just thinking of ways to piss you off or ruin peoples day.”
      I don’t blame god.  Just as I don’t blame Thor.  But I don’t have a problem showing people inconsistencies in their thinking.

      “It wouldn’t have been so bad if the place was better developed and not so stupidly overpopulated, both mans doing - look at the real problems!’
      I agree.  And any man-made institutions (cough-religion-cough) that discourage condom usage (for a start) should be held partly to blame.

      “a) has an ending sure its not a pleasant one but better than living in such poor conditions which are prevalent over there.”
      You mean putting Pakistan out of it’s mysery?  That sounds wrong to me.  And I don’t think anywhere is beyond hope.

      “It was man who made the dam and didnt do a good enough job given what he had to work with it wasnt god who made the dam. “
      What’s to stop an interventionist god from saving the people regardless of the shoddy job of the dam-maker?  Why would free will need to be discarded?

    • Phil says:

      04:49pm | 01/09/10

      @ Steely Dan,

      Clearly there isnt a interventionist god or he was tied up with something more interesting at the time.
      Maybe blame him? still doesnt help the situation!
      :-p

    • Steely Dan says:

      09:39am | 02/09/10

      @ phil

      “Maybe blame him? still doesnt help the situation!”
      Of course blaming non-existent gods won’t help the situation.  But the sooner we can get people to stop gazing off into the heavens and leafing through the Bible when these things happen, the better.  Time spent praying and sending Bibles to disaster zones is time that could be spent helping people.

    • shane says:

      07:15am | 01/09/10

      My 3 possibilities.

      1. God is all powerful, in which case he is ultimately responsible.

      2. God isn’t all powerful, in which case most religions are wrong.

      3. God doesn’t exist.

      I make no judgements as to which others hold true.

    • Sherekahn says:

      08:17am | 01/09/10

      Nature is God, it gives no promises of heaven, we are in it already.  It has no venom, it just IS.
      Humans are the only creatures on earth with venom and false promises.
      WE are mutants, let us hope to be wiped out before we destroy ‘heaven.’

    • iansand says:

      08:30am | 01/09/10

      4.  God exists, is all powerful and is a real bastard.

    • shane says:

      08:57am | 01/09/10

      iansand. Yes, you’re right. There is that possiblity. Thanks for the addition. I made the false assumption that God would be benevolant. Given the horrors attributed to, and done in his name, I should have seen that possibility as clearly as the back of my hand.

    • N8 says:

      11:40am | 01/09/10

      Option 5: God is good and powerful, and we don’t have all of the information.

      Whilst I am not making a judgement on the previous 4, there is also the possibility that we are missing either important facts of the decision or sufficient ability to comprehend them.

      We are looking at the facts as we see them and applying our own moral standard to them. As we aren’t all-knowing creatures a lack of sufficient knowledge to apply our own judgement is at the very least a viable solution.

    • the apologist says:

      04:00pm | 01/09/10

      How about:

      God is all powerful, exists, and you have about as much chance of making a judgment on (or even understanding) what he does and doesn’t do as an ant does on making judgments on you…

    • monkeytypist says:

      04:58pm | 01/09/10

      @apologist that still doesn’t really explain why God is necessary or why does what he does.  Humans aren’t meant/aren’t designed to understand?  Then why does God want worship from us at all?  I don’t want ants to worship me, what would be the poinnt?

    • Mark says:

      08:38am | 01/09/10

      Please read the Bible again and see that the flood was a judgement on mankind as “every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually”. Also the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah for living ungodly lives, and mentioned as an specific example.
      It surprises me how many “educated people” do not even understand the basics of the Bible and that these things must be purposefully hidden from the spiritually blind. I am sure that even a young child could grasp the truth yet someone who is worldy wise just cannot see !
      Also are you seriously saying that Pakistan or other particular places are shining examples of moral integrity ? I think that what we call natural disasters or any of the various roads to death are the results of a world that is contaminated with evil, since the fall of man ( read Genesis ), and gradually multiplied up ( due to the spread of evil ) until the final periods mentioned in the book of Revelation, the last book of the Bible.  You can see from many wordly examples that sin spreads like a disease and without God’s help you will fall. You should thank God for providing us with realistic examples of failure and judgement as warnings and then his reliable word and his own Son, Jesus, for explaning to us the message of hope and love in the other hand.  Any good parents should also warn their children and offer love and support as well.
      You can also read about this in the Bible and make up your own mind, you dont need an intermediary or a priest, God has given you a mind to think things through and a spirit that can make real contact. You can be saved and enjoy a future in heaven and show others the way, the truth and the life.
      Many people take the wide road of drugs, sin and hopelessness and lose everything in the process. There are no spiritually reliable leaders in the world of today so wake up and find out who you can trust in to secure your future and provide the positive feedback and love that you need every day. Hopefully I am getting through to some or a few of you. What happens in Pakistan could happen anywhere as sin abounds. Here in Melbourne there is drunkeness, drugs, prostitution and gambling, all legal of course and on a huge scale. Beneath the surface no doubt much pain. This is all allowed by our so called leaders who will be judged most severely. Sin always seems so attractive at the time but the long term effects are brutal and eternal, be warned before you are caught up in the snare as oftentimes there is no easy way out and much pain for all concerned.
      If you are angry with God or me at this point really ask yourself why. Do you think that sin should be allowed to multiply without God issuing warnings of various kinds. You know for instance when you buy cigarettes that there is a warning added to the packet. Do you prefer to ignore the warning and just concentrate on the horrible suffering of yet another cancer victim and say what a terrible thing has happened and how bad it all is ? I could complain all day long about rape victims but the real cause is sinful attitudes so you have to concentrate on real solutions rather than victims so that future victims are saved.

    • Explains a lot says:

      09:39am | 01/09/10

      When I was a child I spoke as a child I understood as a child I thought as a child, but when I became a man I put away childish things.

      One of those things was the bible and other fairy tales.

    • A Bob says:

      10:42am | 01/09/10

      Thanks for the warning, Mark. Clearly, Pakistan was singled out on this occasion for fixing the cricket.

    • Graham S says:

      10:45am | 01/09/10

      Oh do spare us this medieval clap trap Mark and other such rantings originating from Middle East. This rubbish may have had the goat herders and the ignorant villagers in awe some 2000 years ago when being hectored by the ruling classes in order to keep them under control and this hocus pocus may well appeal today to the ignorant masses in the poorest most miserable places on earth but give the rest of us a break.

    • Shane From Melbourne says:

      10:53am | 01/09/10

      That’s a lot of assumptions there, Greg. The first is that Pakistan is a place of sinners. Since, I’m willing to bet that that you’ve never been to Pakistan, that’s a bit of a judgement call. The second assumption is that the flood was sent by God to wipe out the sinners, a la Old Testament style God rather than the New Testament God (I could never reconcile the two) Since the Christians claim we cannot understand the mind of God, let alone his / her / it’s motivation that’s also a bit of a judgement call. Reminds of an officer in the Vietnam War that said (paraphrasing) “We had to destroy the village in order to save it”

    • rod sexton says:

      08:44am | 01/09/10

      This civilization has been around for about 7000 years - plenty of time to build some flood defences.
      Maybe God looks after those who look after themselves.

    • shane says:

      09:05am | 01/09/10

      Good point. You could also say that about any community that chooses to continue living in an environment which periodically culls them. How many times have we seen footage of people living in Tornado alley in the USA screaming why??? As if the name of the area in question wasn’t answer enough.

      But then again, humans don’t seem particularly good at learning from history.

    • iansand says:

      09:51am | 01/09/10

      Maybe conditions are changing and defences that were adequate for 7,000 years are now inadequate?  Just a thought.

    • A Bob says:

      08:45am | 01/09/10

      The answer, from a Judeo-Christian perspective, is in the book of Job. God has His own agenda, and sometimes innocents suffer in its pursuit. Christians twist it around to fit with their notions about faith, but such concepts didn’t exist for the Jews and such interpretations are wrong. The message is that shit does indeed happen, but don’t take it personally.

    • Sustainable Populater says:

      08:46am | 01/09/10

      God and Satan are the two faces of the same coin.  Don’t trust either of them nor anyone who believes in deities.  And don’t trust Mother Nature either, she seems to be sniffing something.  Just all try harder not to screw screw the planet - use a condom.

    • Markus says:

      10:49am | 01/09/10

      God is reportedly responsible for 2,476,633 deaths in the Bible, not counting any events where no number was given (Noah’s flood, destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah).
      Satan responsible for 10.
      I know which seems like more of a bastard in my eyes.

    • the apologist says:

      09:07am | 01/09/10

      Greg, you’ve reduced God to an impotent and frustrated bystander - in much the same position that you yourself seem to be (based on your reflections). That doesn’t sound like the God of Scripture to me.

    • David says:

      09:13am | 01/09/10

      Mr Clarke, I don’t think that many people would disagree with you that it is a terrible tragedy, and a waste of lives. What I don’t understand is how it is related to faith or religion at all. It rained a lot. Welcome to planet Earth.

      Mark, tl;dr, but the first five or so sentences told me it was going to be more of the same dribble I was reading in Clarke’s prose. You just had to stick the old preacher-style comments in to alienate us.

    • Steely Dan says:

      11:08am | 01/09/10

      Good point.  Greg’s rejection of a naturalistic explanation as ‘inadequate’ seems to be based on emotion, not reason.  I know Greg might simply say that he just wants to know ‘why’ (me too), but I want to know why the answer needs to be restricted to a ‘who’.

    • Ben in Canberra says:

      09:22am | 01/09/10

      There is no God; problem solved. Now lets all get back to the Katter/Oakeshott/Windsor soap opera, oh, and donate some money to the flood relief effort you stingy bastards.

    • Just Sayin' says:

      01:21pm | 01/09/10

      Just Sayin’ likes this

    • monkeytypist says:

      04:54pm | 01/09/10

      oh, well said.

    • Zeta says:

      11:33am | 01/09/10

      Let’s ignore the fact that Pakistan isn’t exactly known for its spectacular public infrastructure, and monsoonal rains couple with decayed levies explain quite succinctly why the flood happened - let’s say God, or the Gods, plural, or possibly an evil sorcerer did it.

      Now the jury’s still out on the existence of evil sorcerers. I had an ex-girlfriend I’m reasonably sure was some kind of Warlock or powerful Magus but that’s based on her repeated attendance of Renaisance Fairs, and no real evidence of magical powers. Which leaves divine intervention.

      Evidence of divine intervention is scant, but let’s assume millions of punters can’t always be wrong.

      That leaves the worrying notion of God or Gods stomping about through the ether, conjuring giant great bloody natural disasters.

      Now, I don’t know about the rest of Punchetariat, but that trend worries me.

      Because I was raised to believe God was a chilled kind of bro who created the universe and retired to some heavenly convalesence home after winning an epic battle with his arch nemesis Satan, leaving his kid and his kid’s Mum to do most of the spiritual heavy lifting with the help of some Mardi Gra looking brothers with flaming swords.

      So God is suddenly taking a serious interest in Earthly affairs, after a millenia of pretty much ignoring them, and his response is floods? Tsunamis? Reminds me of my own parents, who after years of ignoring me have this nasty habit of showing up and dragging chaos with them. Does that make me Jesus? Is that why I’m growing a beard? Will I start my ministry when I turn 30?

      I’m no atheist. I’ve seen too many strange things in my short life to write off the existence of higher powers. But you gotta admit, if God or Gods do periodically intervene in the affairs of men, floods aren’t their modus operandi.

      It’s also kind of arrogant to look over there and assume our God was responsible. I like to think the perceived ‘power’ of a deity is in direct proportion to their sum total of believers. Now is the Christian God really going to have sufficent prayer power to summon a whopping great flood in the land of Allah? If they’re the same God, or aspects of the same God, why would Allah be flooding his most pious worshippers? Why isn’t Allah flooding Kentucky?

      Way, way too many questions. More likely is the levy breaking scenario.

      Please don’t smite me.

    • HappyCynic says:

      11:48am | 01/09/10

      I’m curious, why do things in life always have to be divided into good and bad?  I prefer things to be just be.  A natural disaster is just that, it isn’t good or bad it’s just water or an earthquake or a volcano, people survive, people die, such is life, those that live pick up the pieces and rebuild and those that die are dead.

      Also much ‘good’ can also come from ‘bad’ things, there is a saying, what doesn’t kill you only makes you stronger, maybe that’s reason enough for a higher power allowing ‘bad’ things to happen, if you believe in such things.  In my opinion humanity couldn’t get better if it didn’t ocassionally get kicked in the nuts whether it be by war, pestilence or disasters.

    • iansand says:

      12:18pm | 01/09/10

      “Shit happens” is the atheist default position.  The complication of “good” and “bad” only cause problems when you introduce a deity.

    • HappyCynic says:

      01:22pm | 01/09/10

      @iansand I’m no atheist (nor am I agnostic or humanist or whatever pointless label you try to bestow upon me next), I just don’t believe in the existence of actual good or evil, they’re merely an idea, a future perception of events in the past, a label etc.  G-d is neither because He/She created both ideas, and since Man is allegedly made in G-d’s image I question why we, our actions, words and everything around us, should be relegated to being either good or evil?

    • iansand says:

      01:51pm | 01/09/10

      Fortunately, as a functional atheist (I am prepared to acknowledge as an extremely remote possibility that there may be a god or gods) I don’t have to enter into your particular gyre.

    • Jason says:

      12:08pm | 01/09/10

      God made me an atheist and therefore damned me to an eternity of fire and torment before I was even conceived. It’s all part of His glorious plan.

    • shane says:

      05:27pm | 01/09/10

      hahhaa. fantastic. Short, sweet, and to the point. Some free will. Believe in me or you’ll burn in hell for eternity. mmm, which should I choose. There’s just so much LOVE in that choice.

    • Debbie says:

      12:18pm | 01/09/10

      Whenever someone writes a piece like this about terrible human suffering, there are always plenty of correspondents ready to say that God is a load of nonsense etc etc.  I don’t happen to agree - I think God is real, that we are capable of getting to know Him and that some human suffering is man-made (things we do to each other) while other human suffering doesn’t really have an explanation. Like the Pakistan flood.

      But I feel it’s not so much about figuring out who is responsible than showing some compassion to the survivors, whatever faith we hold.  Because it’s not about coming out on top of a theological argument - we’re always going to disagree to a certain extent - but trying to live together in peace and giving a helping hand when we can plainly see someone there who needs one.  There’s no better time than now to do this.

    • IMHO says:

      01:22pm | 01/09/10

      Why could you not “believe only in nature” and also say of the floods that they are a “terrible waste, a wrong and horrendous state of affairs, and something we deeply regret, long to come to an end, and wish to put right whatever the cost?”

      You don’t need to believe in the supernatural to understand the horror of the floods in Pakistan, nor to feel a deep-seated anguish for the victims. A lack of a believe in “god” doesn’t reduce one’s humanity.

      Does it Greg?

    • Alicia says:

      01:30pm | 01/09/10

      Wow - I’m comforted to know there are far more people in this world that do not have to create a diety to be happy and feel life has meaning. Our evolution of a species depends on looking at facts and discovering truths not creating bubbles of reassurance after death. It is a terrible loss of life and the suffering is unimaginable but please don’t try and make yourselves feel better about this event by passing the buck to Santa Clause’s cousin.

    • rick says:

      03:59pm | 01/09/10

      create a “diety”??!! diety??!! Is it time for your afternoon snack?

    • Gregg says:

      01:52pm | 01/09/10

      ” There are perhaps three ‘non-natural’ ways of looking at disaster such as the Pakistan floods: 1. God did it. 2. Someone evil did it. 3. We don’t know whom to blame, but we know it’s bad.”
      I think I agree with you in ignoring the first point Doc. and though you got close with point 3. you kind of misnamed point 2.

      Am amalgamation of 2 & 3 is your solution ie.
      We know it’s bad and something not necessarily too evil but with a touch of it is to blame for it depends on how closely you wish to align centuries of stupidity and inaction that will endanger lives and destroy livelihoods as evil should determine your thought of how much evil por the devil himself had a hand in it.

      Like Pakistan has produced nuclear weapons and have a sizable military force, with some often up in the Kashmir high country trading shells with their Indian counterparts.
      That this has been going on for half a century already is a drop in the bucket as far as weather to be expected for it is well known [ even to someone like me that is no expert ] that annual monsoonial weather is very related to the Himalayas.
      Couple that to climatic variations and the topography of the alps drainage rivers and affected areas and you have the ” perfect storm ” 1 in a 100, a 1000 or 10, 000 year flood etc. just waiting to happen.

      The technology of modern life does not just ignore that these types of events can occur but will likely see that very little happens other than deaths, a failing of a government to react and appeals for global help.
      This seems to happen whereas it is just 10% of the Pakistani population directly affected and could it be like the New Orleaneans or the Indonesian Tsunami victims, those affected are amongst the poorer of Pakistan.

      Is the evil in this case a lack of planning for living on floodplains?
      It even exists in Australia where the Gold Coast is a prime example of developments after developments on a massive flood plain.
      The worst affected area of that floodplain now being developed with approval by the council for residences that will be inundated by a 1 in 100 year flood as long as the designated level is not more than .6 M above floor level!

      Given Pakistan is a little different, is the Devil there a government not prepared to consider the possibilities of the future and likewise on the Gold Coast is the Devil those allowing developers to seek and the developers seeking gold at ultimately the cost of the ill informed.

    • TheBigMicka says:

      02:13pm | 01/09/10

      Why you?  Why me?  Why anybody?  Kurt Vonnegut.

    • Dave of the North says:

      08:35pm | 01/09/10

      1. God is real, benevolent and all powerful
      2. Satan is evil and would destroy us all if he was allowed
      3. Man delights in blaming the non-existent god when tragic things happen (due in part to us doing evil to each other, or us not respecting the power of nature, or due to the corruption we have introduced to the planet)
      Staggering to think so many people will spend the time trying to decipher who is responsible so they don’t have to be.
      - Make a donation.

    • Krpa says:

      08:49pm | 01/09/10

      God created the world(s) to provide an opportunity for us to be independent of Him. Whilst in this state we are responsible for our actions and such actions will naturally bring consequences. Not all calamaties can be easily understood by us mere mortals, but we can be sure that many of our modern miseries are man made. The more we live in accordance with God’s laws the more comfortable we will be in this place, but if we really want lasting comfort or relieve from suffering we should go back to God’s place as this world by design can never be a comfortable place. Its meant for rehabilitation of man’s nature and is thus comparable to a prison, and therefore not meant for making a permanent living arrangement. Instead of dwelling on ‘why are we experiencing miseries and who is to blame’, we should put that same amount of energy into self inquiry and self realisation and that will lead us to God. It is quite amusing to hear people say God is not all good or all loving, when in fact everything we have is by His mercy. How is He not caring for us? He supplies everything for our sustinance yet we ‘use and abuse’ then blame Him when we get our bad reactions.
      We should be compassionate to those who are experiencing misery in this world. No decent human being likes to see the suffering of others and as humans we have an obligation to help others when they are distressed. God expects that from us..God gave dominion over the Earth to man..
      God doesnt want us to suffer, we choose suffering by being here. All suffering has a cause…nothing happens by chance….for every reaction there is a reaction. In the scriptures of India they intelligently say ‘It is very difficult to trace out the cause of suffering’, and ‘the laws of Karma cannot be fully comprehended by man’
      OM TAT SAT

    • Isaiah says:

      10:14pm | 01/09/10

      It was Satan that said God was unfair and His laws were to hard to keep that he didn’t need God to be righteous, he could do it without God. Sound familiar?
      The fact that Satan fell proves that God does indeed give His creatures free choice. Love cannot be forced (any parent would understand this) Now in this earth Satan gets his chance to show that his way is better, that no one needs God. If Lucifer was destroyed straight away the doubts he was sowing amongst the angels may have seemed justified, so God has given oppurtunity for all the unfallen worlds (yes its not all about us) to see Sin and Godlessness play out so there can be no doubt about its effect. Satan would have you dead soon as look at you however he doesnt need to worry much about those who don’t choose God, so it would wrong to say he’s responible for the floods in Pakistan in that sence. This world would already be finished if God wasn’t extending time to give people the oppurtunity to change sides, so God wouldn’t have caused the floods either and cut short their opportunity for change. Natural disarsters will only increase as the Bible has warned, floods, great earthquakes, pestilences etc becoming more frequent and more intense like labour pains as the Bible puts it. We should do eveything we can to preserve the planet, but sorry to burst your bubble, no one is going to be able to stop the catastrophic future. What’s here today will be gone tomorrow for all of us sooner or later, I’d focus on the things that last forever. Those who reply to shoot me down, go your hardest I wont be back to see it.

    • Ally says:

      11:13pm | 01/09/10

      Greg Clarke… which god do you propose is responsible for the Pakistani floods… yours (i.e. God), or Allah, or YHWH, or Ik Onkar, or the many Hindu deities, etc, etc… ?

    • Jon says:

      09:50am | 02/09/10

      Maybe the Pakistani god is the wrong god and these people are being the punishment for following the wrong god. Maybe they are not following the right god close enough and are being punished. Maybe just maybe they built on a flood plain with poorly planned dams.

      Goethe said, if God created this world, he should review his plan.’

 

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