how was it found out? what is the evidence?

Can we have some photos of Ryan and Somali posted here please.

Also perhaps the address of Thompson and Clark in Auckland if someone can find it.

Does someone have to make a complaint about Ryan and Somlai spying without 'certification' for the police to take it up?

Sad to say I'm not surprised at this tactic, but it certainly should be a wake up call to others in this country about what sort of government we have (knowing that this would happen what ever party was in power), and what it actually means to have 'the right to protest' in a 'democracy' such as ours.

Address Details

Registered Office
C/-Marsden Robinson Chow Ltd.
Level 2, Chamber Of Commerce Bldg.
100 Mayoral Drive, Auckland

Address for Service
C/-Marsden Robinson Chow Ltd.
Level 2, Chamber Of Commerce Bldg.
100 Mayoral Drive, Auckland

Directors

Name - Date Appointed:

CLARK, Gavin Shane 10-APR-2003
1/9 Wairere Avenue, Mt Albert, Auckland

THOMPSON, Nicholas Guy 10-APR-2003
215 Foster Road, R D 1, KUMEU

Alternative address for Thomspon:

THOMPSON, Nicholas Guy
Unit 2, 6 Gladstone Street, Parnell, Auckland

"The Christchurch Save Happy Valley (SHV) group, the Wellington Animal Rights Network (WARN) and Peace Action Wellington (PAW) have exposed corporate spies operating within their groups."

Is this accurate? The press releases from these groups state that it was the SST that exposed them.

It originally came from the groups themselves. Nicky Hagar took the story to SST.

www.tcil.co.nz/

gavin.clark (at) tcil.co.nz

Yes ,post photos of these two please

can someone post recognisible photos of these 2

those little fuckers.

here's an abridged version of the article the sunday star times published about it: stuff.co.nz/4074686a10.html
it explains how they found out about it etc.

It looks like big business use "Sun Tzu's Art of War" as their bible for business practices. To me this is unenlightened behaviour but not surprising since these types of outfits have unenlighten people within them. It might pay for other activists groups to take a hard look at the people involved with them as they may have the same problem.

Have Somali or Ryan been involved in any other groups? Time for activists to do a little research.

Thompson and Clark should lose their private investigators licence over this.

Yes, Sun Tzu does talk about spies like: spies are the most important asset because on them depends an army's ability to march.

Another philosophy that business use at times is that of Machiavelli.

And who can forget about Theresa Gattung's, CEO of Telecom NZ, comment made last year of using confusion as a marketing tool?

Just goes to show the true colour of business and of some people.

Maybe it's time of activists groups to use the same tactics as these organizations.

Machiavelli and Sun Tzu rules, huh?

I am surprised that Mark Eden fell for this ploy! He comes across as smarter than this.

Can people please post the spies' surnames as well? I'm sure there are better photos of Somali around.

Hi, no we wont be printing surnames, the real bad guys in all of this are Thompson & Clark, and the corporates that pay them for their dirty work. we are not particularly interested in harassing a couple of stupid students who did the dirty work for the real bad guys higher up
Mark
Wellington Animal Rights Network

When the elephants fight, the grass gets trampled - African proverb.

Who are the elephants and who are the grass here?

Regarding comment about Mark Eden. If Somali is a spy (and I would like to see proof) then she was an extremely good one. I have been involved with ANZCCART protests and factory farming demos and other activities, and I never would have suspected Somali. As Mark said she never showed any real passion, but I would have been suspicious of anyone overplaying outrage. She certainly did not ham up her role at all, and she fooled a lot more people than just Mark.

One of the worst aspects of this is that we will now all be under suspicion, even those of us who have been in the movement a long time.

Groups such as these may have to restructure them selves to allow new recruits to be screened before being able to be come fully involved.

A time period of say 6 months before some before they can be involved in planning typ meetings or having to provide proof of previous activist experience are a couple of ideas.

For more information on Thompson & Clark:
www.thompsonandclark.co.nz/
or email them at:
mailto:investigator (at) tcil.co.nz

For Don 'The Snake' Elder's defence of spying on TV3 see:
www.tv3.co.nz/SoildEnergyCEOsaystheyhavedonenothingillegal/tabid/209/articleID/27789/Default.aspx

I would like to reiterate the need for surnames and photos - these people do not need to be protected - but lets not let the movement suffer - talk of screening people etc should be approached with caution - lets not let them win!!!!

Don't Let It Get To You. Turn it Back on Them.

Follow Don Elder, Follow Thompson and Clark, Follow the Narcs. Find out where they live, where they go, who they meet. Take as many photos and notes as you can.

Groups such as these may have to restructure them selves to allow new recruits to be screened before being able to be come fully involved.

A time period of say 6 months before some before they can be involved in planning typ meetings or having to provide proof of previous activist experience are a couple of ideas.

i'd like to see legal action come under this and a full explanation by CEO Don Elder, Thompson and Clark and Trevor Mallard.

“Thompson & Clark are a leech-like company, feeding off political groups while making sure not to kill their main source of income” stated WARN spokesperson Mark Eden. “Companies that abuse animals like to keep their practices their dirty little secret, and it seems they will sink to any low to keep it that way.”

for one thing Ryan In Chch admitted to the Sunday star times that he was employed by Thompson Clark. (see article) re people being suspect- only the guilty should be worried

My heart goes out to the activist crews that have had this happen to them, particularly those who were closest too and friends and allies with the amateur spies. Makes it hard to trust others when people do shit like this, :-( Arohanui jo xooo

Don has been Chief Executive Officer since May 2000. He previously worked for 20 years in the UK, the United States, New Zealand and Canada. He has been Chair or Director of numerous companies, national and local organisations and business and community groups, and has served on a number of Ministerial advisory committees. Don is currently a Director of Orion New Zealand Ltd, the ASB Bank, the World Coal Institute and the Coal Association of New Zealand.

geez this sucks that those leeches would do something like this.
Thompson and Clark have truely added a frightening outlook thats bringing us closer to Orwells idealism.
It's horrible that the trust of such a close community can be distrupted by those arseholes.
Can't wait to start writing my nice long letter to them ;)

Any attempt to vet potential activists would be a big mistake. I question how much they got of value, anyway.

Like all dirty tricks, this one is backfiring on the people playing it. The spies and their clients are looking very very bad right now. They've fucked up big time.

Remember that comment a few years back about most New Zealanders being moral pygmies? Money rules in an ethically relativist culture.
Vic

www.youtube.com/watch

Mark is on the business.

A couple of stupid students hungry for an extra dollar are not the big problem for us to focus our bayonets towards.

It's their ordergivers that need our serious concentrated committed unforgiving attention.

Don Franks

As far as I can see technicality wise, within the Privacy Act, Thompson and Clark Firm has done nothing illegal. While their actions may be a little decieving it is to be expected. Lefties have done the same on occasions, infiltrating rightwing groups, business meetings etc.

But nonetheless there are actions which any activists concerned can take.

I recommend putting in a request to the named firm and it's director for information on yourself under the following principles of the privacy act, note you can "correct" any information held on yourself. If said firm and director do not allow you to alter or view your personal information they would most defnitely be in breach of the privacy act. Have a read below:



Principle 6 Access to personal information

(1)Where an agency holds personal information in such a way that it can readily be retrieved, the individual concerned shall be entitled—

(a)To obtain from the agency confirmation of whether or not the agency holds such personal information; and

(b)To have access to that information.


Principle 7 Correction of personal information

(1)Where an agency holds personal information, the individual concerned shall be entitled—

(a)To request correction of the information; and

(b)To request that there be attached to the information a statement of the correction sought but not made.

(2)An agency that holds personal information shall, if so requested by the individual concerned or on its own initiative, take such steps (if any) to correct that information as are, in the circumstances, reasonable to ensure that, having regard to the purposes for which the information may lawfully be used, the information is accurate, up to date, complete, and not misleading.


(3)Where an agency that holds personal information is not willing to correct that information in accordance with a request by the individual concerned, the agency shall, if so requested by the individual concerned, take such steps (if any) as are reasonable in the circumstances to attach to the information, in such a manner that it will always be read with the information, any statement provided by that individual of the correction sought.

Coal "activists",,, shit try going against Dow then you can experience the real "spying".

The guy that spied for $100 a week must be one cheap date.

Only getting $400.00 a month for spying? What a rip off! I wouldn't be that cheap!

$400 a month. Sounds like they are just going for the max cash they are allowed to earn with their student allowances. However the bigger price they have paid is the loss of their souls for such souless actions.

Mmmm.......selling your soul for 30 pieces of silver. Opps, for $400 or less. That hasn't been done before, eh?

Let's not forget that there are probably more spies in our midst...
...or people who wouldn't blink at turning people over to the state for $$$.

We need to have good security culture, without letting this degenerate into a witch-hunt. jo

I agree with Don and Mark. Ryan is actually a nice guy who has just done something stupid for a little bit of extra cash (which I sure many of us have done) and the real blame lies higher up.

I think things need to be keep in perspective and that issues like openness and inclusiveness are still the most important values in our groups.

I kinda of also think that in would be great when we get just as excited about issues like internal democratic process, sexism within our groups and decision making processes as we do about cops, spies, security guards and "illegal activites"

rant rant
dan rae

I'm not surprised that big business uses these tactics, so why should others?

Take Telecom for eg www.youtube.com/watch.

Machiavelli and Sun Tzu ploys indeed.

Ryan may be a 'nice guy' Dan, but there is no excuse for what he has done. His behaviour and actions are unforgivable. I hope that SHV doesn't believe that things he is saying to the media at the moment, I'm sure he would have been told what to say by his employers, and he can't be trusted to be honest. He's probably still on the pay roll.
Jo

Hi Jo (Jo who by the way?, I like to know who I talking to, only if you want to of course :-) ) ,

Yep, I don't excuse him or what he has done I just think often things get out of hand with this type of stuff and think there has been alot of things done in the name of "sercuity culture" that have perhaps done more damage to "our movements" than and spy has possibly done so far and put a number of people off for getting involved.

anyway got to run to work :-(

and yep I still thing he is a nice guy and generally except for this of course seems a genuine (sp?) person.

dan rae

whoops sorry for all the spelling mistakes in that last post, I hope it still makes sense-I can't spell

dan

I agree with Dan, fanatical paranoia and vigorous security screening has no place within 95% of the activities of a social movement. It serves only to alienate and repel potential members of the public who would otherwise have become involved. It is no longer acceptable for environmental and humanitarian (etc) movements to continue to present themselves as balaclava-clad stereotypical radicals. Social change needs to accomodate society. I will also state (as someone who has been directly involved in media representations of SHVC) that the resulting media exposure has been the best and most compassionate the campaign has EVER seen. For once we are not portrayed as radical, frivolous students but as promoters of a valid and commendable cause. Ryan could easily have used his exposure to publically rub our campaign in the dirt. And if you want to engage in COVERT illegal activity, that is your own business and you shouldnt be discussing it widely anyway
-Graham

LOL think the only word you did spell correctly was genuine! jo as in ratbag A josephine from chch, and heres what I think too katipo.net.nz/stanselen
He's still lying to SHV crew today.

Yes it is important that we are inclusive in our groups. And it is also important that we do not include spies or narcs or plants sent to disrupt our activities.

So invite everyone to partake in our campaigns.

Form affinity groups or sub collectives or autonomous groups.

If your group plans on doing something that relies on an element of secrecy. like the need for surprise or confidential legal tactics or what you are doing is illegal for example. Then -

Number 1 Don't work with anyone who you haven't known for a long time. Only work with people you trust completely.
If you are not sure if you trust someone. Think about how you got to know them. Did they get involved at a time when a campaign was being successful, do they always want to know everything especially names dates times and places. Are they open about their past (what do you really know about this person) .......

Keep it quite. Form your group without anyone else knowing. Keep everything just between the group. Maintain a strictly need to know basis.
Talk in person not over email or via txt's
Don't talk inside houses or cars. Make sure you are not followed.

Don't write things down without destroying it as soon as it is read.

Remember if someone is uncomfortable with something then adress the discomfort dont brush it of or joke about it.

Only use last names if you have to.

Even if something seems innocuous think about whether or not anyone really needs to know.

If someone is compromising peoples safety then let them know pull them up respectfully. And don't hassle people for doing this or label them paranoid.

Show each other lots of love and respect, if we do then people should feel comfortable in there relationships and not feel left out if they are not invited to partake in an action.

Don't hold a suspicion about someone and start spreading romours about them or being nasty to them.

If you suspect someone. Talk to your trusted friends about it in a large group situation in a respectful reasonable manner.

Keep being friendly and building mass movement. Never stop fighting back.

i find it difficult to hear dan and Graeme patting this guy on the back, like what he has done was 'good',(is this what you are suggesting Graeme?) whilst calling everyone else paranoid and fanatical for thinking about security.

I do not endorse what has happened, nor am I calling everybody else paranoid and fanatical. I agree that security issues are important, especially regarding covert illegal activity. However, the potential harm to public image and endorsement of a campaign of appearing too stringent about this must be remembered as well. Public perspectives of social movements are far from favourable in contemporary culture. We might have been vogue and respected in the 70s and early 80s but alas times have changed. It is vital that social movements do not allow themselves to be marginalised and discredited by the public eye by something as simple as pandering to stereotypes. The majority of non-activist feedback I have heard about this incident is in agreement that spying on social activism is wrong. Sending out vibes of overly obsessive security culture to the impetus of new support we can expect will do more harm than good.

I have long been concerned with the impact that zealous security culture plays upon social movements. The idea of social movements is (hopefully) that members of society feel comfortable, welcome and justified in getting involved and jumping on the bandwagon. I agree that Ryan's infiltration sucked... he was someone I considered I mate. However, I feel (speaking as a minor media-dog of SHVC) that the current media coverage has been the best and most compassionate this movement has ever seen. Ryan could have easily used his exposure to publically rub our campaign in the dirt, instead his comments further render this movement as valid and commendable.
Zealous paranoia and wanton security checks do nothing to break our tired societal activist stereotypes of being balaclava-clad dreadlocked gaztapo. For once SHVC is not being portrayed as a bunch of fringe radical students but as mainstream propents of a cause that is of extreme relevance to the NZ public. This is too good an opportunity to waste by instigating a witch-hunt upon the new influx of support that all groups involved in this incident can now expect.
Ah... got that out of my system
-Graham

Where did the last 12 or so posts go?

"a bit money hungry"… Just a bit like solid energy eh? It is not much of an excuse

I think we should be pushing the angle that solid energy new the train action was happening but did nothing to stop it.

The discovery of infiltrators (especially some who many activists thought were friends) is especially hurtful. However, I agree with some of the above posters who have noted that at least Ryan has admitted what he's done. I'm sure he feels like a right royal plonker right now. The media attention so far has really portrayed SHVC as the good guys and Don Elder as a paranoid crazy (of which he is). His comment that SHVC members deserved to be spied on because they were 'anarchists' was especially good.

For the first time I can ever remember the despicable actions of Solid Energy, Thompson and Clark, the NZ Defence Industry Association and NZ Bio (think I have the name right) have got the type of media attention they deserve.

Kia Kaha my friends and comrades in SHVC, Peace Action Wellington and Wellington Animal Rights Network. I think all this shows these scumbags see you as a threat to their skull duggery. Something to add to your CV ;)

This common practice here in Aotearoa illegal surveillance they didnt even need the SIS amendmnt let alone the 9-11 so called terrorism laws the 80s and 90s exhibhited the narc a neighbor mentality more effective than Mao collective citizenz confidence circles Says alot about your average Kweee (KIWI)

Be prepared at all times for infiltraitors gauge how they tye the religious beliefs with their morality, devils advocate all members and with treaty based issues look for anomalise in their human apps. Hearts and minds to uncover the sleepers read the manual and reverse. IM WATCHING

Futher to this draft ALLEGIANCE charters which contain confidentiality conduct and principles clauses preventing unauthorised disclosure make the papers harsh apply with your own descretion align this to a royal seal then charge them with conspiracy and treason or breach in civil court

Be prepared at all times for infiltraitors gauge how they tye the religious beliefs with their morality, devils advocate all members and with treaty based issues look for anomalise in their human apps. Hearts and minds to uncover the sleepers read the manual and reverse. IM WATCHING

Hi anonymous, whoever you are, I never patted Ryan on the back or said what he did was fine!!!! Not sure where you got that from. I also never called people paranoid or fanatical.

However if you actually want to talk about what I did write I have lots of thoughts about this issue but don't have time to write them now, but my point was about keeping things in balance and perspective. I think from being involved in the chch group who was "betrayed" that I think Ryan would be feeling pretty bad right now and has national media for something no one would be proud of.

dan rae

Anyone interested in hearing about a Festival that aims to address the most fundamental truth of ours and any time please contact me personally via e-mail.
Praja108 (at) yahoo.co.nz
Something amazing is unfolding and we warmly invite you to hear the message this FESTIVAL BRINGS.
Come with an open mind, and come with an open heart.
Message Festival Aotearoa 2008.

yeah -toll must feel pretty miffed that squalid energy didnt tell them about the the "lock-on"- and then fined them shit loads for not having the train show up on time ...

There appears to be widespread public antipathy to the spying campaign run by Clark and Thompson, to the extent that the government has had to do some tut tutting.

But if it's wrong to use public money to spy, where does this leave the Security Intelligence Service, which has resources Thompson and Clark can never match? The SIS gets tens of millions a year from the taxpayer and spies continually on the activist left. Why is it OK for these folks to spy with public money?

It'd be good see somebody like Keith Locke, or a group in the spotlight like PAW, try to deepen the debate about spying by bringing in the SIS. The Alliance used to call for the abolition of the organisation back in the '90s, but changed course after entering government. Since then there's been almost no public debate about the SIS, despite the fact that its budget has increased markedly after 9/11.
(Scott)

sounds like an idea for a public media campaign
or at least a few OIAs

CAN WE PLEASE HAVE PHONE NUMBERS FOR Thompson & Clark?